Comments on: Why Don’t Mormon Elders Answer My Simple Questions? http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/ living the gospel Fri, 12 Mar 2010 23:02:11 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.7 by: nathan http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-137756 Mon, 04 Jan 2010 15:41:59 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-137756 Thanks for your response, Michelle. You prompted me to re-read my entry. I must say that none of my questions put the Mormon on the defensive, accusing him of not being a Christian. I have purposely removed from my discussions questions about the nature and work of Christ. I have concertedly decided to ask about divine authority flowing to human instruments, hence the questions of ordination, baptism, and Holy Scriptures imparted to mere men. Thank you for answering my question concerning the validity of my ordination. I appreciate your honesty. I doubt that you would allow me to baptize you. Would you be willing to answer on this blog my additional six questions at the conclusion of this entry? Thanks for your response, Michelle. You prompted me to re-read my entry. I must say that none of my questions put the Mormon on the defensive, accusing him of not being a Christian. I have purposely removed from my discussions questions about the nature and work of Christ. I have concertedly decided to ask about divine authority flowing to human instruments, hence the questions of ordination, baptism, and Holy Scriptures imparted to mere men. Thank you for answering my question concerning the validity of my ordination. I appreciate your honesty. I doubt that you would allow me to baptize you. Would you be willing to answer on this blog my additional six questions at the conclusion of this entry?

]]> by: Michelle http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-137726 Mon, 04 Jan 2010 05:47:48 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-137726 I didn't read everyone's comments, but I have been pondering about your assertion that Mormon's are lying to you and their "I'm okay, you're okay mantra." Perhaps, the reason you feel you can't engage in the type of conversation that you're looking for is that most Mormons recognize that contention is not of Christ. How could I say "I'm Christian" and then argue with you? It's easier for me to tell you what I believe and not engage in a discussion in which either of us would have to judge the other person. In response to your question about your ordination and authority, I would answer that since you did not recieve this ordination through the proper authorities, then yes, according to what I believe, it is false. But, does that mean you're going to hell? Who am I to judge? I think that right there is the crux. Who am I to judge whether you will be saved or be sent to hell? Who are you to judge that Mormons are going to hell? That's Christ's job. I can make decisions about what I believe to be true. I can say I don't agree with what you believe to be true. But, I will never ever say that because of what you believe you are a sinner or are going to hell, because I do not have that right to make that decision. I didn’t read everyone’s comments, but I have been pondering about your assertion that Mormon’s are lying to you and their “I’m okay, you’re okay mantra.” Perhaps, the reason you feel you can’t engage in the type of conversation that you’re looking for is that most Mormons recognize that contention is not of Christ. How could I say “I’m Christian” and then argue with you? It’s easier for me to tell you what I believe and not engage in a discussion in which either of us would have to judge the other person.

In response to your question about your ordination and authority, I would answer that since you did not recieve this ordination through the proper authorities, then yes, according to what I believe, it is false. But, does that mean you’re going to hell? Who am I to judge? I think that right there is the crux. Who am I to judge whether you will be saved or be sent to hell? Who are you to judge that Mormons are going to hell? That’s Christ’s job. I can make decisions about what I believe to be true. I can say I don’t agree with what you believe to be true. But, I will never ever say that because of what you believe you are a sinner or are going to hell, because I do not have that right to make that decision.

]]> by: mike http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-78676 Wed, 25 Jun 2008 16:55:22 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-78676 Nathan, See, here it is again. It's all in the semantics. It's like CC does, it's a softball way of insulting us. "Book of Mormon give us more information about Jesus Christ than are available in the bible and help to clarify many things which are unclear in the bible. Things such as the purpose of the atonement...". We're not clear on the atonement? Notice the word "bible" is in lower case and the "Book of Mormon" is in caps. I did read Matt W's conversion story. It’s another proof that God's plan of Election is an awesome force. Nathan,

See, here it is again. It’s all in the semantics.

It’s like CC does, it’s a softball way of insulting us.

“Book of Mormon give us more information about Jesus Christ than are available in the bible and help to clarify many things which are unclear in the bible. Things such as the purpose of the atonement…”. We’re not clear on the atonement?

Notice the word “bible” is in lower case and the “Book of Mormon” is in caps.

I did read Matt W’s conversion story. It’s another proof that God’s plan of Election is an awesome force.

]]> by: Matt W. http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-78394 Sun, 22 Jun 2008 04:40:23 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-78394 1) Would your faith and life be complete without Joseph Smith? Joseph Smith teaches me more about Jesus Christ and God than I would otherwise be able to know. His work and teachings also gives me more of an opportunity to appropriately contextualize the teachings within the bible. The Church God had him establish is the way of life I have chosen for myself. However, if Joseph Smith had not been the one who God manifested his will to, I am sure he would have called a different person to be his prophet and to expund his will and teachings. So, I guess I can answer yes and no, depending on what you mean by "Jospeh Smith". Do you mean the Individual or the role and connection to Christ the individual provided? 2) Had the Church of the Latter Day Saints never been established through the prophethood of Joseph Smith and the succession of prophets after him, would their be a true church in the world today? If it hadn't been established through, Joseph Smith, I believe God would have found another to establish it through. 3) If you did not have the Book of Mormon, would you graduate into the world to come to the level you aspire to achieve? I think the teachings in the Book of Mormon give us more information about Jesus Christ than are available in the bible and help to clarify many things which are unclear in the bible. Things such as the purpose of the atonement, the nature of agency, the nature of god, theodicy, the purpose of life, the divinity of Christ, etc. Personally, I do believe that the Book of Mormon enables a faith increase in man that allows for more open and direct revelatory dialogue with God, but I think all the information in the Book of Mormon could also be available to man via personal revelation as well. The Book of Mormon just helps facilitate that process. For me personally, I wouldn't even believe in Jesus Christ without the Book of Mormon. (I converted to Christianity from atheism due to interaction with God because of the Book of Mormon) 4) Is the embracing of the Book of Mormon as the words of God on the same level as the 66 Books of the Christian Bible necessary for salvation, entrance into the kingdom of God? Yes, in that neither is necasary for salvation. Embracing Jesus Christ and his Gospel is necassary for salvation. Many people can not read, and will never have proplific knowledge of the contents of either book, but will be saved. 5) Is the testimony of Joseph Smith a foundation of your faith? If you mean, is the fact that Joseph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus Christ and what that implies about the teachings I follow, and the fact that I believe he really did see them nd they really did bestow authority upon him, then yes, it's foundational. Is that what you meant? 6) Is your testimony of conversion a foundation of your faith? Yes, defenitely. Turning toward Christ, giving up our personal wills to be swallowed by the will of our Lord and Redeemer. Repenting of our Sins. Coming unto Christ. Personal conversion is essential to my faith. Hope this helps you. 1) Would your faith and life be complete without Joseph Smith?

Joseph Smith teaches me more about Jesus Christ and God than I would otherwise be able to know. His work and teachings also gives me more of an opportunity to appropriately contextualize the teachings within the bible. The Church God had him establish is the way of life I have chosen for myself. However, if Joseph Smith had not been the one who God manifested his will to, I am sure he would have called a different person to be his prophet and to expund his will and teachings. So, I guess I can answer yes and no, depending on what you mean by “Jospeh Smith”. Do you mean the Individual or the role and connection to Christ the individual provided?

2) Had the Church of the Latter Day Saints never been established through the prophethood of Joseph Smith and the succession of prophets after him, would their be a true church in the world today?

If it hadn’t been established through, Joseph Smith, I believe God would have found another to establish it through.

3) If you did not have the Book of Mormon, would you graduate into the world to come to the level you aspire to achieve?

I think the teachings in the Book of Mormon give us more information about Jesus Christ than are available in the bible and help to clarify many things which are unclear in the bible. Things such as the purpose of the atonement, the nature of agency, the nature of god, theodicy, the purpose of life, the divinity of Christ, etc. Personally, I do believe that the Book of Mormon enables a faith increase in man that allows for more open and direct revelatory dialogue with God, but I think all the information in the Book of Mormon could also be available to man via personal revelation as well. The Book of Mormon just helps facilitate that process. For me personally, I wouldn’t even believe in Jesus Christ without the Book of Mormon. (I converted to Christianity from atheism due to interaction with God because of the Book of Mormon)

4) Is the embracing of the Book of Mormon as the words of God on the same level as the 66 Books of the Christian Bible necessary for salvation, entrance into the kingdom of God?

Yes, in that neither is necasary for salvation. Embracing Jesus Christ and his Gospel is necassary for salvation. Many people can not read, and will never have proplific knowledge of the contents of either book, but will be saved.

5) Is the testimony of Joseph Smith a foundation of your faith?

If you mean, is the fact that Joseph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus Christ and what that implies about the teachings I follow, and the fact that I believe he really did see them nd they really did bestow authority upon him, then yes, it’s foundational. Is that what you meant?

6) Is your testimony of conversion a foundation of your faith?
Yes, defenitely. Turning toward Christ, giving up our personal wills to be swallowed by the will of our Lord and Redeemer. Repenting of our Sins. Coming unto Christ. Personal conversion is essential to my faith.

Hope this helps you.

]]> by: nathan http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-74269 Sat, 17 May 2008 23:34:02 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-74269 you are most welcome, Chad. I am learning much myself through this interchange. you are most welcome, Chad. I am learning much myself through this interchange.

]]> by: Chad Moore http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-74153 Sat, 17 May 2008 06:37:17 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-74153 Nathan, Given the many comments to your interactions with Mormans article above, I find it amazing the raw number amount in comparison to your other blog writings. So, we are up to 27 comments huh? This is rather non-normal compared to if any comments are posted they range usually from 2-4. The next highest had 7 when I looked back in the monthly archives. It appears their was much response to your recent writing especially outside the PCA faith that greatly contributed to a conversation. Perhaps even more comments could have been posted, but I would venture you tried to choose them carefully. Overall, the interaction spurred a distinctly different dialog typical to the past to which I felt was a blessed event. I find it very important to understnad the differences in religions. The more I academically study other ones, I find myself believing I am on the right path. Overall, it is a faith based decision, but I enjoy the learning the differences instead of following blindly. I feel you should be commended on this article posting. Nathan, Given the many comments to your interactions with Mormans article above, I find it amazing the raw number amount in comparison to your other blog writings. So, we are up to 27 comments huh? This is rather non-normal compared to if any comments are posted they range usually from 2-4. The next highest had 7 when I looked back in the monthly archives. It appears their was much response to your recent writing especially outside the PCA faith that greatly contributed to a conversation. Perhaps even more comments could have been posted, but I would venture you tried to choose them carefully. Overall, the interaction spurred a distinctly different dialog typical to the past to which I felt was a blessed event. I find it very important to understnad the differences in religions. The more I academically study other ones, I find myself believing I am on the right path. Overall, it is a faith based decision, but I enjoy the learning the differences instead of following blindly. I feel you should be commended on this article posting.

]]> by: Clean Cut http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-73008 Thu, 08 May 2008 16:43:45 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-73008 Nathan, I've really enjoyed the opportunity to have an "inter-faith" discussion. I would love to hear more about your visit with the missionaries. Mike, your tone, I believe, is what might be contributing to the log jam. It comes across as very combative. We are only seeking for understanding and desiring that we be understood. I've got a sense through this thread that you're constantly attempting to force your own version of LDS doctrine on the people rather than letting "official" LDS doctrine speak for itself. It reminds me of what's been described as the "straw man" argument. You're building "straw man" LDS doctrines by citing one or more LDS figures, as if such statements represent official LDS doctrine. "Not only do Mormons deny infallibility among their leadership, but we allow lay members and leaders alike, the free agency of publicly expressing personal opinions so long as they don't run counter to "official" LDS teachings." I appreciate sincere discussion, but nobody in their right mind wants to participate in an argument. It's easier to simply stay away and not comment at all. Yet I still feel compelled to respond to your criticisms. The Apostasy was foreseen by the apostles (ie: 2 Thessalonians 2:1–3), as was the Restoration of all truth (ie: Acts 3:19–21). You can read the "official" LDS teachings about the apostasy and restoration on www.mormon.org under "basic beliefs". I've made a sincere attempt to explore how we might present a certain statement as to not only ensure that you understand, but that you might not misunderstand. It is the statement when Joseph Smith asked the Lord which church to join, and he "was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof." I posed the question to readers of my blog as to how they would respond to someone from another faith who might take offense at that. In the interest of full disclosure, I thought I'd share a compilation of some of what they had to say: One commenter: "I'm not quite sure that there is need for anyone to take offense to the statement mentioned BECAUSE I don't feel like God was saying all of the people who were practicing those various faiths were an abomination, but rather, that the preachers who were preaching damnation to all who didn't join their church were an abomination. I feel like that statement was more of a distaste for what was being taught, which was not what Christ had taught, that was an abomination to God." Another commenter: "Abomination" may seem like strong language to us, but maybe that's because we're not God. Try to look at it from something like his perspective: if divine authority really does matter -- and it's certainly reasonable to propose that God might think it does -- then any church that falsely claims to have divine authority is likely to seem pretty abominable to God. And any church that claims to preach eternal truth without a claim to divine authority isn't going to be much better. With this issue as with so many others, the question is whether or not Joseph Smith saw and heard what he claims he saw and heard. If, in fact, God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him and said what he reports they said, then our opinion about what they said doesn't really matter much -- our job is to listen and heed. If, however, God and Jesus Christ did not appear to him and say those things, then we should ignore his report of the experience altogether. Either way, our opinion about the word "abomination" is pretty much irrelevant, I think." Another response: "I’d like to think that the “abomination” lies not within the members or clergy who with a pure heart attend their church, but those who knowingly pervert the Lord’s word by molding it into something that fits their own agenda, which I think are few in number. I would also like to think that the vast majority of people who attend their individual churches have the best intentions and worship according to their conscience, just as we do in our own church. I don’t think it’s wrong for us to believe that we have the truth, because doesn’t everyone believe that they are right? At the same time, if we have the fullness of truth, does that equal a monopoly on truth? I personally don’t think so." One more commenter: "Members of the LDS Church don't hate members of other churches. That is not where the conflict lies. The teachings of the apostate churches are hypocritical and abominations. I believe the exact quote is, "I was answered that I must join none of them [the then-current churches], for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” (Joseph Smith History 1:19) We love people of other faiths! Most protestants I've met are warm, caring, decent people who genuinely follow the Savior's path! We also know that God does not like His truth distorted, nor does he look kindly on those who knowingly twist His words. These "professors" aren't necessarily all pastors and teachers, but many of them are. Joseph Smith ran up against a good number of them in his lifetime." One last commenter (not a Mormon): "Personally speaking, I don't take offence at the "...all other churches/creeds are abominations..." statement. Of course, it might give the post-modernist more ammunition to fire his gun with and further his contempt that all transcedent truth are mere power statements. "I liken J.Smith's claim about all other creeds as abominations (we'll assume it's a claim at the moment) to Jesus' claim of being the only Way, Truth and Life in John 14. In the same way that Jesus was asserting His uniqueness, the same might be said for J. Smith's assertion for the LDS church's uniqueness =) "With Jesus' example, he backed-up everything he said with miracles, through excorcisms, power over the elements, healing the sick, raising the dead etc. and through prophecies, which were to come true. I mean, can you imagine the look on people's faces as he claimed to be the ONLY way to the Father? I don't think the people were ready to hear the claim as I'm sure they were asking for an objective way to the Father...and not the fact that THE way is through Jesus alone?! It is of no wonder that Jesus was charged with blasphemy =) But the dilemma for them I guess is, with Jesus' ability to create all these miracles - AND claim to be the ONLY WAY - what can you do but believe him? "So, I guess the issue is not about how to communicate the LDS church's uniqueness in a 'neighbourly' way - in much the same way that Jesus did not dress up his claims in a 'neighbourly' fashion either...the issue is: if it is true (that the LDS church is the only true church), then it is to be CELEBRATED! Because if truth is truth, it will stand up to any scrutiny =) "In the same way that if Jesus really did die on the cross and was raised up on the third day, then it is also the most wonderful news." Nathan, I’ve really enjoyed the opportunity to have an “inter-faith” discussion. I would love to hear more about your visit with the missionaries.

Mike, your tone, I believe, is what might be contributing to the log jam. It comes across as very combative. We are only seeking for understanding and desiring that we be understood. I’ve got a sense through this thread that you’re constantly attempting to force your own version of LDS doctrine on the people rather than letting “official” LDS doctrine speak for itself. It reminds me of what’s been described as the “straw man” argument. You’re building “straw man” LDS doctrines by citing one or more LDS figures, as if such statements represent official LDS doctrine. “Not only do Mormons deny infallibility among their leadership, but we allow lay members and leaders alike, the free agency of publicly expressing personal opinions so long as they don’t run counter to “official” LDS teachings.”

I appreciate sincere discussion, but nobody in their right mind wants to participate in an argument. It’s easier to simply stay away and not comment at all.

Yet I still feel compelled to respond to your criticisms. The Apostasy was foreseen by the apostles (ie: 2 Thessalonians 2:1–3), as was the Restoration of all truth (ie: Acts 3:19–21). You can read the “official” LDS teachings about the apostasy and restoration on www.mormon.org under “basic beliefs”.

I’ve made a sincere attempt to explore how we might present a certain statement as to not only ensure that you understand, but that you might not misunderstand. It is the statement when Joseph Smith asked the Lord which church to join, and he “was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

I posed the question to readers of my blog as to how they would respond to someone from another faith who might take offense at that. In the interest of full disclosure, I thought I’d share a compilation of some of what they had to say:

One commenter: “I’m not quite sure that there is need for anyone to take offense to the statement mentioned BECAUSE I don’t feel like God was saying all of the people who were practicing those various faiths were an abomination, but rather, that the preachers who were preaching damnation to all who didn’t join their church were an abomination. I feel like that statement was more of a distaste for what was being taught, which was not what Christ had taught, that was an abomination to God.”

Another commenter:
“Abomination” may seem like strong language to us, but maybe that’s because we’re not God. Try to look at it from something like his perspective: if divine authority really does matter — and it’s certainly reasonable to propose that God might think it does — then any church that falsely claims to have divine authority is likely to seem pretty abominable to God. And any church that claims to preach eternal truth without a claim to divine authority isn’t going to be much better. With this issue as with so many others, the question is whether or not Joseph Smith saw and heard what he claims he saw and heard. If, in fact, God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him and said what he reports they said, then our opinion about what they said doesn’t really matter much — our job is to listen and heed. If, however, God and Jesus Christ did not appear to him and say those things, then we should ignore his report of the experience altogether. Either way, our opinion about the word “abomination” is pretty much irrelevant, I think.”

Another response:
“I’d like to think that the “abomination” lies not within the members or clergy who with a pure heart attend their church, but those who knowingly pervert the Lord’s word by molding it into something that fits their own agenda, which I think are few in number. I would also like to think that the vast majority of people who attend their individual churches have the best intentions and worship according to their conscience, just as we do in our own church. I don’t think it’s wrong for us to believe that we have the truth, because doesn’t everyone believe that they are right? At the same time, if we have the fullness of truth, does that equal a monopoly on truth? I personally don’t think so.”

One more commenter:
“Members of the LDS Church don’t hate members of other churches. That is not where the conflict lies. The teachings of the apostate churches are hypocritical and abominations. I believe the exact quote is, “I was answered that I must join none of them [the then-current churches], for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” (Joseph Smith History 1:19)

We love people of other faiths! Most protestants I’ve met are warm, caring, decent people who genuinely follow the Savior’s path!

We also know that God does not like His truth distorted, nor does he look kindly on those who knowingly twist His words. These “professors” aren’t necessarily all pastors and teachers, but many of them are. Joseph Smith ran up against a good number of them in his lifetime.”

One last commenter (not a Mormon):
“Personally speaking, I don’t take offence at the “…all other churches/creeds are abominations…” statement. Of course, it might give the post-modernist more ammunition to fire his gun with and further his contempt that all transcedent truth are mere power statements.

“I liken J.Smith’s claim about all other creeds as abominations (we’ll assume it’s a claim at the moment) to Jesus’ claim of being the only Way, Truth and Life in John 14. In the same way that Jesus was asserting His uniqueness, the same might be said for J. Smith’s assertion for the LDS church’s uniqueness =)

“With Jesus’ example, he backed-up everything he said with miracles, through excorcisms, power over the elements, healing the sick, raising the dead etc. and through prophecies, which were to come true. I mean, can you imagine the look on people’s faces as he claimed to be the ONLY way to the Father? I don’t think the people were ready to hear the claim as I’m sure they were asking for an objective way to the Father…and not the fact that THE way is through Jesus alone?! It is of no wonder that Jesus was charged with blasphemy =) But the dilemma for them I guess is, with Jesus’ ability to create all these miracles - AND claim to be the ONLY WAY - what can you do but believe him?

“So, I guess the issue is not about how to communicate the LDS church’s uniqueness in a ‘neighbourly’ way - in much the same way that Jesus did not dress up his claims in a ‘neighbourly’ fashion either…the issue is: if it is true (that the LDS church is the only true church), then it is to be CELEBRATED! Because if truth is truth, it will stand up to any scrutiny =)

“In the same way that if Jesus really did die on the cross and was raised up on the third day, then it is also the most wonderful news.”

]]> by: nathan http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-72576 Mon, 05 May 2008 16:44:25 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-72576 That is a problem. I think we made some face to face headway this past week at our Saturday worship gathering at Evergreen Church, which we call "Recon," short for Reconciliation. Michael invited two Mormon elders to join us and they actually showed. It was my privilege to drive them home to their apartment after dark. They profusely thanked me for not trapping them. One of them said, "We have heard horror stories of elders on mission put on the spot in Protestant churches or subjected to scorn." Graciously we made space for them, warmly welcomed them, got to know them without the pressure of apologetics. As to your observation that we cannot make headway in this unfolding comment line, I would say, that I am rather pleased with the log jam. This is precisely my point: Mormon faith is different than Christian faith. Hence, log jam. I have no agenda other than this when it comes to my apologetic endeavors with Mormons. They are seeking common ground and there is none. One has to be lost to be saved. If one thinks that he is OK, then the most deceptive of blindfolds prevents him from seeing the Way. The space we enjoyed this past Saturday night, were it expanded and sustained, could become the location in which an individual would discover the significant difference between Mormon faith and Christian faith, then float on the log jam waving arms in the air, crying out, "Save me, Lord Jesus! You are my King and my God!" That is a problem. I think we made some face to face headway this past week at our Saturday worship gathering at Evergreen Church, which we call “Recon,” short for Reconciliation. Michael invited two Mormon elders to join us and they actually showed. It was my privilege to drive them home to their apartment after dark. They profusely thanked me for not trapping them. One of them said, “We have heard horror stories of elders on mission put on the spot in Protestant churches or subjected to scorn.” Graciously we made space for them, warmly welcomed them, got to know them without the pressure of apologetics.
As to your observation that we cannot make headway in this unfolding comment line, I would say, that I am rather pleased with the log jam. This is precisely my point: Mormon faith is different than Christian faith. Hence, log jam. I have no agenda other than this when it comes to my apologetic endeavors with Mormons. They are seeking common ground and there is none. One has to be lost to be saved. If one thinks that he is OK, then the most deceptive of blindfolds prevents him from seeing the Way. The space we enjoyed this past Saturday night, were it expanded and sustained, could become the location in which an individual would discover the significant difference between Mormon faith and Christian faith, then float on the log jam waving arms in the air, crying out, “Save me, Lord Jesus! You are my King and my God!”

]]> by: Chad Moore http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-72493 Mon, 05 May 2008 00:58:27 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-72493 Nathan, There appears to be two distinct schools of thought during your interaction with Morman missionaries. Either of you can not make headway because of it. The missionaries want to explain Mormanism to you based on their terms, but you want to find out about it on your terms. Both of you are asking questions in response to questions, thus there is no headway. Nathan, There appears to be two distinct schools of thought during your interaction with Morman missionaries. Either of you can not make headway because of it. The missionaries want to explain Mormanism to you based on their terms, but you want to find out about it on your terms. Both of you are asking questions in response to questions, thus there is no headway.

]]> by: mike http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-72388 Sun, 04 May 2008 04:07:15 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2008/04/12/why-dont-mormon-elders-answer-my-simple-questions/#comment-72388 Emily M, You say that without Joseph Smith's entrance onto the screen, "There would be churches with truth, much truth, and many good, honorable people in them, but not a true, authorized church." Your leaders have called us "the whore of babylon", "the Lord denounces us", "we’ve corrupted all the earth by our fornications and wickedness", "we’re all wrong, our creeds are abominations" and "we’re going to hell”…just to name a few. It seem to me, that Joseph Smith’s assessment of the church before him wasn't even close to your assessment that there’s "truth, much truth". How could I misinterpreted a quote By Joseph that says “we’re all wrong”? When Jesus said that He would "build His church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it", it seem like hell actually did prevail against it. For nearly 2000 years, the was no truth, no Gospel. Why? because Joseph said that what we believed was "all wrong." There was "no true true, authorized church." Emily M,

You say that without Joseph Smith’s entrance onto the screen, “There would be churches with truth, much truth, and many good, honorable people in them, but not a true, authorized church.” Your leaders have called us “the whore of babylon”, “the Lord denounces us”, “we’ve corrupted all the earth by our fornications and wickedness”, “we’re all wrong, our creeds are abominations” and “we’re going to hell”…just to name a few.

It seem to me, that Joseph Smith’s assessment of the church before him wasn’t even close to your assessment that there’s “truth, much truth”. How could I misinterpreted a quote By Joseph that says “we’re all wrong”?

When Jesus said that He would “build His church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it”, it seem like hell actually did prevail against it. For nearly 2000 years, the was no truth, no Gospel. Why? because Joseph said that what we believed was “all wrong.” There was “no true true, authorized church.”

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