Why Don’t Mormon Elders Answer My Simple Questions?
Yesterday evening while I was on my daily walk, stopping to complete a set of push-ups, two Mormon missionaries on bicycles stopped to talk with me. They were pleasant and soon into the conversation, I realized that they were mainstream, following their training to the “T” unlike the honest Mormon who came to my doorstep, October 2006, prompting me to write, “I Met an Honest Mormon Today.” The honest Mormon Elder on my doorstep told me that I was going to hell because I was an ordained minister under false authority.
Last night, the two polite Mormon elders were typically pushing the Book of Mormon hard. It’s not the Bible or Christ that they push. Only if someone, like myself, asks them about the Bible, do they say, “Yes, we believe the Bible to be God’s word….” Only if called to testify about Christ do they say, “Yes, Christ is important.” In the training of these hard-working, committed young men, the Book of Mormon must be showcased, a starting point in the presentation of the gospel of the restoration that occurred through Joseph Smith.
I keep the discussion with Mormon elders pleasantly congenial. (read “I Met an Honest Mormon Today,“) I am intrigued by the Mormon religion and apologetic. So many Americans consider it to be quite similar to Christianity, but the contrasts outweigh the comparisons. The Mormon worldview is intriguing to me as it is exotically different than the Christian worldview. When I meet Mormon elders I have questions, many questions, simples questions. I frame them politely and clearly. And so I am often humored at the consistent dodging technique that must be part of their training. Why Don’t Mormon elders answer my simple questions?
Last night I asked the following simple questions. The one missionary fell silent and the appointed spokesman asked me unrelated questions in place of answering my simple questions. Early on in any of these discussions I identify myself as an ordained minister in the Presbyterian Church in America. And so I asked the simple question: Do you consider my ordination to be false and thus the authority granted to me to be false? (The official Mormon answer is simple and widely known among Mormon elders - the answer is “Yes, your ordination and the authority of your office is false. The reason it is false is that the true order of Jesus Christ and his twelve apostles did not continue, but sinfully fell into apostasy, disappearing, leaving no true church, until Joseph Smith received revelation, gold tablets, the mantle to restore true authority and the succession of prophets once again in these last days.” This is bedrock Mormon history, central to the Mormon faith and practice. And so, why did this Mormon elder refuse to answer my question? I think that he did not wish to say anything against me but continue to appear as if he affirmed me, as an apologetic technique, to refrain from sounding rude or condemning.
I asked a second question to get at the same answer: Would you allow me to baptize you? He would not answer the question, but instead asked me questions, all sorts of questions about the Bible, about the Book of Mormon, about my testimony. He was following his training adeptly. I politely pressed him to answer my question, to which he replied, “Why don’t you answer my questions?” Now I have become accustomed to falling down rabbit holes and I have finally found the experience to be entertaining. I laughed and had to correct this kind young man. I said, “Actually, I have asked you two simple questions which you have dodged by asking a multiplicity of unrelated questions. I have not answered them wishing to keep on track. But you respond by pretending to be offended at my refusal to answer your questions. Now, the only way to fix this is for you to answer my question: Do you believe my ordination and office of authority to be false?” He replied, “You are a good man, but you have no authority.” I told him that I did not consider either clause of his sentence to be true. The silent partner said, “But you are a great man.” I said, “Thank you for finally answering my question and admitting that you and your prophets do not consider me to be anything but false. For how can I be a good or great man if I am a minister by false ordination wielding a false authority?” Does this not make me a wolf in sheep’s clothing? Why not be honest and give me the Mormon answer?
If you read the comments connected to “I Met an Honest Mormon Today,” you will read Clean Cut’s comments in which he insists that he was never taught as a Mormon to lie. The kind of lies I detect in my discussions with Mormon elders is the kind I have described in this entry: telling me that I am good and great; refusing to tell me that my vocation, ordination, and authority are false; responding to my questions by asking distracting questions. I suspect, without hardly anything invested in the suspecting, that these young men are trained to respond this way as an apologetic technique and thus I can not conclude that it is anything but disingenuous.
Here is a list of additional questions I asked these two last night - simple, straight forward questions, all deflected by memorized statements returning to the topic of the Book of Mormon:
1) Would your faith and life be complete without Joseph Smith?
2) Had the Church of the Latter Day Saints never been established through the prophethood of Joseph Smith and the succession of prophets after him, would their be a true church in the world today?
3) If you did not have the Book of Mormon, would you graduate into the world to come to the level you aspire to achieve?
4) Is the embracing of the Book of Mormon as the words of God on the same level as the 66 Books of the Christian Bible necessary for salvation, entrance into the kingdom of God?
5) Is the testimony of Joseph Smith a foundation of your faith?
6) Is your testimony of conversion a foundation of your faith?
This final question is a good one for any of us to answer.
You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.
President Hinckley, our prophet for the last 15 years, has been taking the LDS Church in the direction of having fewer differences and less conflict with other Christians. This has been to the consternation of many LDS scholars, who want to emphasize our distinctives or make us a new Abrahamic religion, as different from Christianity as Christianity is from Judaism. The new approach has included the re-writing of the missionary lessons and the rewriting of the handbook for youth and new members. With President Hinckley’s unfortunate passing, the naming of the counselors in the new presidency of Thomas S. Monson, and the naming of two apostles who are great proponents of the idea, means that it will continue during his presidency.
For what Latter-day Saints are working to adopt as positions regarding the “one true church” and the apostacy, see these excerpts from Robert Millet’s book “A Different Jesus? The Christ of the Latter-day Saints” at this link: http://ldsfocuschrist.blogspot.com/2007/07/what-only-true-church-does-not-mean.html
For what the Church Website how says about the validity of the teachings of other Christians, see this: http://ldsfocuschrist.blogspot.com/2007/07/what-only-true-church-does-not-mean.html
For our understanding of the Bible and the place it takes in our scriptures, see this recent conference talk by Apostle Ballard: http://ldsfocuschrist.blogspot.com/2007/04/for-people-who-are-interested-in.html
For some comments by Richard Mouw on the other “Only True Churches” within Christianity, see this: http://ldsfocuschrist.blogspot.com/2007/07/other-one-true-churches-in-christianity.html
It will take some years to reach the end of the row, but LDS Missionaries and Leaders will sound less and less offensive to other Christians.
Thanks much,
Steve St.Clair
Thank you, Steve St. Clair, for posting these sites for gleaning insight into the Mormon position and apologetic. I truly appreciate your taking the time to help in this manner. I visited your site and read about your speaking at Biola University of which I am a graduate. I applaud peaceful and informative meetings such as these. By the way, would you be willing to simply answer the questions I have posted after being side-stepped by these two kind, young elders in my neighborhood? Thank you.
nathan.
The purpose of missionaries is to bring others unto Jesus Christ through the preaching of repentance. Every soul needs repentance, but the preaching itself won’t do them any good unless they listen. Attentive, non-resentful listening requires an atmosphere of mutual respect and love. Thus, a missionary’s primary focus in meeting a perfect stranger is to build a positive relationship of trust, and not to try to ‘fix’ the stranger’s lifestyle.
The lessons dealing with compliance to the Lord’s commandments come later. Every missionary knows that as these gospel investigators learn, and as the Spirit works in their lives, they will often be inspired of their own accord to live closer to the Lord by changing their sinful behaviors. It seldom becomes necessary to ‘call them out’ on their transgressions.
That said, if it were me being asked these direct questions, I think I would answer them more directly:
1- My faith would not be complete without the knowledge I have of the Restoration of the gospel through Joseph Smith. Faith in Jesus Christ means confidence in Him and in His plan. It would be difficult to maintain my faith in Christ without knowing which of all the ecclesiastical voices was authorized to speak for Him. The Prophet Joseph was chosen by the Savior to open a new dispensation and that is a crucial bit of knowledge for us today.
2- If there had not been a restoration through Joseph Smith (or any other prophet), then there would be no true church anywhere in the world. Such was the case for nearly two millennia.
3- The Book of Mormon, like the Bible, is not requisite for salvation, but its teachings bring people to Christ. It sets forth the plan of salvation and teaches men what they must do to gain peace in this life and eternal salvation in the life to come. In its absence, the Lord would provide other means for spiritual growth.
4- The Bible itself has no power to save man. Neither does the Book of Mormon. (Abraham was saved without either). So why do we bring it to people? Because it testifies of the divine mission of Jesus Christ and it stands as a witness of the Restoration of the gospel through Joseph Smith. It strengthens our faith in Christ and in His Church.
5- Joseph Smith was a prophet, called personally by God. This is a vital part of my testimony (see #1).
6- No man can go very far in Christ’s Church without obtaining a personal witness of its truth. This fact is fundamental to our doctrine and it invariably comes up in the first lesson with missionaries. Every LDS child, every new convert, every person studying with the missionaries for the first time is encouraged to read, ponder, and ask God whether these things are true.
What Do Mormons Believe?
The consequence of your being ‘a minister by false ordination wielding a false authority’ is proportional to your knowledge of that fact. A poor rural priest in sub-Saharan Africa, who has never heard the name Joseph Smith is in little danger. Many pastors with earnest desires do great things to bring the doctrine of Christ to the hearts of people around the globe. Others mistakenly rail against the gospel of His Church. Still worse is any minister who, in his heart of hearts knows he has no claim to authority, but attempts to exercise it anyway. He is the true wolf in sheep’s clothing.
I do not know you. I cannot tell which kind you are. Can you?
Thaddeus
http://whatdomormonsbelieve.blogspot.com
Wasn’t the Gospel restored when Charles Taze Russell restored it? I think a key point that Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses agree on is that there is no Trinity to speak of. God the Father had spirit being sons in what I believe is called a premortal state….wait, didn’t L. Ron Hubbard believe that too? Anyway, these two sons had 2 different plans, The Father chose Jesus’ plan.
It is unfortunate that there was no “true” church “for nearly two millennia”. It is strange that a powerful God could let us walk around in the dark for all that time. It must have been frustrating for God to wait around for Charles Taze Russell or Joseph Smith to come around to restore it.
When Jesus went to those “other sheep” down in South America, why didn’t he tell them to come to us with the restored Gospel? Did he not tell them to “therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. Why would he leave us hanging there?
Also, we should be glad that there’s been a restoration of the gospel through Joseph Smith or Charles Taze Russell. All the stuff we didn’t know! Here we were walking around thinking, Sola scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola gratia, Solus Christus and Soli Deo gloria! What ignorant people. Again, it must have been frustrating for God to have waited around for Charles Taze Russell or Joseph Smith to come around. Rendered impotent for what was it…“nearly two millennia”?
No wonder they baptize for the dead! There’s a lot of folk that need catchin’ up on! Are they in purgatory while they wait? Wait, it’s a lesser heaven isn’t it?
To be safe and make sure we listen to “all the ecclesiastical voices authorized to speak for Him”, check out the latest issue of Watchtower magazine!
By the way, I did ask God “whether these things are true”…sorry, but He said no…I guess He’s told a lot of us no.
And by the way, thanks for insulting our pastor. Nice work. Oh, yeah…God said no to him too! I guess since God told him no too, his ordination is true and he’s not wielding a false authority! What a relief!
One other thing…why is it so important that you need to be accepted by “mainstream Christianity”? Why can’t you just do your own thing? The followers of Charles Taze Russell don’t want anything to do with us. Why do mormons go out of their way to try and be liked so badly? You are so very different on so very many levels.
Long live the elect! Wait, that’s kind of a given isn’t it?
Thanks for being honest Thaddeus and directly answering my questions. For me your answers are confirming of what I have read about the Mormon religion. Since I am not a Mormon, I have been seeking Mormons who will answer my questions and thus confirm that I am reading correctly. I visited your blog and read that its purpose is to introduce people to the Mormon mind. I also read the banner quote of Joseph Smith calling Mormons to honesty among other virtues. On the issue of authority, the Mormon is most similar to the Roman Catholic, who submits to the succession of the Papal office, each Pope’s words uttered ex cathedra to be the words of God for the church. This is similar to the Mormon Prophets’ words being the very words of God for the church. The churches that established out of the historic Reformation have charted a different course for ecclesiastical authority. Most Reformation churches, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Anglican/Episcopalian, Baptist and others claim that Jesus is the head of the Church, the bishop of our souls. They hold to some form of canon closure, the discontinuation of divine revelation. These aspects of Reformation churches are founded upon the fulfillment of the Scriptures in the Person and work of Jesus Christ. Luke writes in Chapter 24: 45ff of his Gospel: “Then Jesus opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, and said to them, ‘Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead, and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things. And behold, I am sending the promise of my Father upon you. But stay in the city until you are clothed with power from on high.” These words of Jesus at least hint that the Scriptures are sufficient and that they certainly point to and are fulfilled in Jesus Christ. These words of Jesus also seem to indicate that the promise for aid and guidance in the mission of these latter days would be the Holy Spirit, the promise of the Father, the very Spirit of Christ. Believe me, as a Presbyterian minister, I have little authority and technically, I have no authority of my own. All authority belongs to Christ.
From your answer, Thaddeus, I am a man to be most pitied or worse yet, despised by the Church of the Latter Day Saints. I am not a poor, ignorant priest in sub-Sahara Africa who has never heard of Joseph Smith, as you describe the one who is “off the hook.” Rather, I am a minister of a church that has a history of significant influence in western civilization for nearly 400 years, instrumental in shaping our larger society. As Mike, a member of the congregation I serve, has written above, for these 400 years we have held to the “five solas,” which can hardly be described with any seriousness as apostasy. By your definition, then, if there ever was a wolf in sheep’s clothing, I am it. Thanks for your honesty! You are much like the Mormon missionary at my doorstep in 2006, who told me that I was going to hell because I was falsely ordained. In directly answering my questions, you have certainly lived according to the words of your prophet, Joseph Smith. In the early days of Mormonism, many Mormons were murdered for their religion. They spoke their Mormon points of religion regardless of the consequences. Persecution and martyrdom never prove the verity of a religion held. Jesus told his disciples, “If they persecuted me, they will persecute you.” However, this does not mean that every persecuted group holds to the truth. Nevertheless, many of the founding Mormon communities were persecuted only because they actually and clearly told the larger community what they actually believed. Such honesty is all that I am trying to get at in my describing of my interactions with Mormons in my neighborhood. I’m tired of the “I’m OK; You’re OK” mantras of my Mormon neighbors. I am tired of the dodging of simple questions. I relish in a good religious discussion and when someone holds a differing point of view I am most interested to consider what they say, to try to understand it and then to interact with it. I don’t pretend to agree when I disagree. That would be dishonest. That is one of the more popular ways to tell a lie.
With my test case of ecclesiastical authority, we are merely puncturing the surface. Most of the lies Mormons have regularly told me in my neighborhood have to do with the doctrine of the atonement. Let us openly discuss our differing doctrinal beliefs on these most important issues. As I read it, the Mormon doctrine of atonement is quite different than the one held by Christendom. One of the reasons I know that Mormons lie to me about this difference is that the doctrine of the atonement I hold to as a Christian with a Reformation heritage is one of the Mormon proofs of the church going apostate and thus the need of Joseph Smith as the prophet of the restoration to establish the church once again on true doctrine, including the Mormon doctrine of the atonement that differs significantly from the doctrine to which I hold. And so, from my perspective, the Mormon lie runs far and deep, to the very foot of the cross, right into the very nature of Christ Jesus, who hung on the cross to atone for our sins.
mike, you may not see my beliefs as very convincing, but they are what I believe. I am not here to prove them true. That is the job of the Holy Ghost, who will ‘bring all things to your remembrance.’ I was trying to be honest, as was asked for.
You mentioned how thankful you were that I insulted your pastor. I wouldn’t have done it if nathan hadn’t specifically asked for it. It is also exactly what the missionaries were trying not to do, and I think you can see why. It’s bad manners.
nathan, in our view of the atonement, Jesus Christ suffered and died so that man could overcome the effects of sin and death. Jesus literally rose from the dead in an immortal, physical body and promised the same resurrection for all people. ‘…in Christ shall all be made alive.’ 1 Corinthians 15:22
Through the pain He suffered in Gethsemane and on the cross He suffered the punishment for our sins. In order to obtain this supreme gift of forgiveness we must cooperate with Him. The path begins with faith in Jesus Christ; then, repentance, baptism, and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost by laying on of the hands, followed by continued faithfulness until the very end.
What do Presbyterians believe about it?
What Do Mormons Believe?
I don’t see them as convincing. As I said before, your “president” has no more authority than Charles Taze Russell does. Mormons, JW’s, Scientologists, they as well as countless others say they have the “restored” truth. Every week on TBN guys and gals say they hear from God. Why does everyone else not have the truth and you do? They hear from God as well as your guy does don’t they?
The apostle Orson Pratt, in his book “The Seer” said “Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the ‘whore of Babylon’ whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness.”
Joseph Smith asked God which Christian church he should join. In The Pearl of Great Price, “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong, the personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight.”
It seems very clear that Orson Pratt and Joseph Smith believed that we did not worship the same Jesus and they did. Our creeds are an abomination. What do we believe? Here’s one:
We believe in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord:
Who was conceived of the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried.
He descended into hell.
The third day He arose again from the dead.
He ascended into heaven
and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty,
whence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
Both Joseph Smith and Orson Pratt said we’re the whore of babylon and an abomination for believing that. You can’t tell me they’d never heard them!
The historic church believes that salvation is a gift of God. It’s nothing we, in our own state, would strive for. The total depravity of the human condition makes man totally (I do emphasize the word totally) unable to seek God. Man is quickened by God to seek his face, see our retched condition and ask God to grant us faith and repentance. As I said it before: Sola Fide, by faith alone. Sola gratia, by grace alone. Solus Christus, by Christ alone, which would lead the redeemed to shout, Soli Deo gloria! To God alone be the Glory. My works are as filthy rags before the throne.
My thought when I see the arrogance of statements like “we must cooperate with Him” and “continued faithfulness until the very end” is that you have no idea of your condition. You have no idea of what an abomination it is to think you could help your salvation in any way. It’s not our great faith in God, it’s faith in a great God.
Contrary to mormon belief that “As man is, God once was. As God is, man can become.” We don’t believe that at all. Revelation tells us that we are, and will be, just saints. We will not have our own planet, the god of what we see. No, we’ll be around the throne of Glory praising the one that reedeemed us from sin, death and hell for all eternity. He, Jesus, did it all. From start to finish.
“Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.”
1 Thessalonians 5: 23-24
If that makes us uninformed saps…so be it!
Thank you, Thaddeus for asking what Presbyterians believe about the atonement of Christ. The answer is significantly different than the Mormon answer. I will tell you what our understanding of the Bible’s teaching on the atonement is reflected in the creeds which stand as a collective confession rather than what I personally believe as opposed to what you personally think. I’m sure that you can appreciate such a collective view as you look to your prophets to provide this kind of binding confession for you as a Mormon.
The biblical doctrine of the atonement is central to the gospel which proclaims that Christ has overcome the effects of sin and death. Your answer informs me that Mormons believe that we, as mere human beings overcome sin and death. But the Bible says, “And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ - by grace you have been saved - and rasied up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages e might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.” (Ephesians 2:1-10)
This is only one of many clear statements in the Bible that informs us that the atoning of our sins is the work of Christ alone. We do not cooperate with God, as the Mormon position presents it. We do not cooperate but instead we receive it - freely. Paul addresses the place and importance of our good deeds as that which God has ordained for us to do, even before we were created or born! Our walking in them, that is our executing of these good deeds is in response to the gracious and complete work of Christ.
Specifically addressing the atonement, the Apostle John writes “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does din, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ, the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for our only but also for the sins of the whole world.” This holy, divine revelation given to us through the Apostle John in I John 2: 1-2 clearly assigns the work of the atoning of our sins to Christ alone. It is for us to respond by refraining from sin. But even if we sin, and we will sin, whether or not we are good Mormons or good presbyterians, we will sin and when we do, Christ Jesus will apply his sole work of atoning our sins to our record so that we might be freely and eternally safe in him, enjoying the heavenly Father’s love. This is significantly different than the doctrine of the atonement you have presented as the Mormon doctrine of the atonement.
Unfortunately, Mormons are not alone in holding to their doctrine of the atonement. Many presbyterians have abandoned the clear interpretation of the Bible and adopt a view of humanity working alongside Christ and God to atone for our sins. Certainly the Roman Catholic Church largely teaches such cooperation (and as I have already commented, Mormons and Roman Catholics seems to share a lot, even though these two groups disagree sharply on the nature of Jesus Christ. The Mormons believe in a single nature of Jesus and the Roman Catholics hold to a dual nature of Jesus Christ.) Were it not for this central rift in doctrine, I would think that most Mormons and Roman Catholics would see eye to eye on quite a bit - of course there are the cultural differences that are altogether important to us in this 21st century.
Thaddeus, when it comes to the path of the atonement, we believe that the path ends at the cross of Jesus, where he paid in full the penalty for our sins. We believe that baptism, repentance, even faith are God’s signs and seals, his gifts to us to help us live in concert with his free and completed work on our behalf. Presbyterians have believed for 400 years that Christ’s death on the cross actually accomplished atonement of sins. We do not believe that Jesus died to make atonement a possibility or to offer atonement to anyone who would receive it and thus unlock its efficacy. We believe that when Jesus cried from the cross, “It is finished!” that he meant what he said, “All is accomplished!” and that the heavenly Father’s justice was satisfied. His wrath poured out upon Jesus satisfied him and he has freely welcomed us into his eternal love, even his kingdom -even the new heavens and new earth to come! Hallelujah!
nathan,
Thank you for sharing with me your Presbyterian beliefs.
In saying that salvation is a free gift, do you imply that all people everywhere will receive salvation, regardless of anything they do? Even Mormons? Surely there must be some prerequisites or there would be little point in having religion.
I’m sorry if my words suggested that man himself overcomes sin and death. That is not what I meant, and it is not what we believe. Jesus Christ’s atoning sacrifice overcomes sin and death on behalf of man.
If you would like to know more about our beliefs on this matter, consult Alma 42 in the Book of Mormon. I’ll quote a few of the verses below.
24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.
25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.
26 And thus God bringeth about his great and eternal purposes, which were prepared from the foundation of the world. And thus cometh about the salvation and the redemption of men, and also their destruction and misery.
27 Therefore, O my son, whosoever will come may come and partake of the waters of life freely; and whosoever will not come the same is not compelled to come; but in the last day it shall be restored unto him according to his deeds.
28 If he has desired to do evil, and has not repented in his days, behold, evil shall be done unto him, according to the restoration of God.
Thank you for continuing this dialog.
What Do Mormons Believe?
Mike, I’d like to try to respond to your questions: “why is it so important that you need to be accepted by “mainstream Christianity”? Why can’t you just do your own thing? The followers of Charles Taze Russell don’t want anything to do with us. Why do mormons go out of their way to try and be liked so badly? You are so very different on so very many levels”.
First of all, my interest is not in being accepted by “mainstream Christianity”. I just resent the name-calling and people telling us that we aren’t something that we actually are. No matter how many “Christian” evangelicals try to say otherwise, I am a Mormon, AND I am a Christian. I’m not saying this in an effort to be included as part of some national “Christian club” or as one of “the group”, but only to say who and what I really am. I strive to follow Christ and live by Christian teachings/morals/values.
Most of the time, people try to exclude Mormons from being Christian because we don’t buy into the Nicene creed and the “Christian” understanding of the Trinity. If this truly were a prerequisite for being Christian, then PLEASE count me out simply because it’s not biblical. In fact, count Jesus himself out because he wasn’t around for the Nicene creed either, and he himself didn’t believe in the Trinity that many, if not most, of modern Christianity say they believe in. To me, this is one of the most disastrous results of the apostasy–totally altering belief in and understanding of the nature of God.
We’re also criticized for not accepting that the scriptural canon was closed after the death of the apostles; for believing that God is perfectly able to talk to prophets today as He did in ancient times. Once again, I’m glad I don’t conform to the “Christian Club” if it means that I believe every word God spoke up until the Bible was finished-as long as he doesn’t speak another word. Who are we to say God can’t continue to speak? I could go on, but Stephen E. Robinson said it best already in his book “Are Mormons Christian?”. This book deepened my understanding of the issue and gave me knowledge about the basis of the name calling and labeling of us as a “cult”.
Elder Jeffrey R. Holland (a member of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles) gave a significant talk during a recent general conference of the Church entitled “The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent”. In it he said that “The Lord told the ancients this latter-day work would be ‘a marvellous work and a wonder’, and it is. (see Isaiah 29) But even as we invite one and all to examine closely the marvel of it, there is one thing we would not like anyone to wonder about—that is whether or not we are “Christians.” He then goes on to give a very relevant talk; teaching the truth while at the same time defending our Christianity. If you’re interested, here’s the link: http://www.lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-775-15,00.html
Yes there are differences–otherwise we wouldn’t have a leg to stand on. We also have a scriptural mandate to humbly and unselfishly take these things into all the world. We just want to be seen for what we really are, and not what other people make us out to be.
No matter how far people go trying to tell us how crazy we are for believing certain things, truth is truth, and there’s no denying it. Especially when some things are so self-evident. Doctrinal beliefs aside, I certainly don’t judge a true Christian by what church he or she goes to, but by how he or she lives. That’s why I can hope that others will do the same with me.
Thaddeus,
I guess you don’t want to comment at all on my post. Face it. We don’t worship the same God as you do.
Just until recently your leaders wanted nothing to do with us. What has been your position on us? You’ve called us the whore of babylon, the Lord denounces us, we’ve corrupted all the earth by our fornications and wickedness, we’re all wrong, our creeds are abominations and we’re going to hell.
You said our pastor “asked for it” when you insulted him. I see no difference between what you said and what has been said about us by at least several of your own leaders.
Quoting alma holds about as much weight as the jehovah’s witnesses publication by Charles Taze Russell called the battle of armageddon.
You can’t quote alma and have an illusion to salvation by grace. In fact, 12th President Spencer Kimball said in his book The Miracle of Forgiveness, he chastised members who “are doing nothing seriously wrong except in their failures to do the right things to earn their salvation.” In the same book he says “discontinuance of sin must be permanent.”
“apostle” Bruce McConkie teaches, “Salvation grows automatically out of the resurrection, and the coming forth in the resurrection constitutes the receipt of whatever degree of salvation has been earned.” He also says “Salvation is free,’ but it must also be purchased; and the price is obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.”
I pull no punches. Let’s get to the heart of the matter, we are not the same. We never have been, we never will be.
Your salvation is earned. Your discontinuation of sin must be permanent. Your salvation is purchased by your obedience to the laws and ordinances of your gospel.
Clean Cut,
Nice work! mormons and we are totally different. We have no connection whatsoever. I’m thrilled you pointed that out.
The book you mentioned talks about the basis of the “name calling” towards mormons. You are seeming to point out, I think in your last post, the reasons your leaders were/are “name calling” towards us. You’ve called us the whore of babylon, the Lord denounces us, we’ve corrupted all the earth by our fornications and wickedness, we’re all wrong, our creeds are abominations and we’re going to hell…just to name a few.
Don’t get me wrong, I know what you are. You are totally different than us. There is no resemblance whatsoever. We “apostates” have nothing in common with you. There is no dialog that will bring us together. We have no basis for togetherness.
We should exclude you from being called christian. How can I say it more plainly…there is no basis to call you christian. You can call yourselves christian if you like, so many others do, including the jehovahs witnesses.
Jesus wasn’t around for the Nicene creed? Are you kiddin’ me? I can’t believe you’d throw a statement in like that! Or are you cluless as to what it is?
Let me add what was said in a previous post:
Contrary to mormon belief that “As man is, God once was. As God is, man can become.” We don’t believe that at all. Revelation tells us that we are, and will be, just saints. We will not have our own planet, the god of what we see. No, we’ll be around the throne of Glory praising the one that redeemed us from sin, death and hell for all eternity. He, Jesus, did it all. From start to finish.
“Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is He who calls you, and He also will bring it to pass.”
1 Thessalonians 5: 23-24
If that makes us “apostates”…so be it!
Mike, in your response to Thadeus you sound angry. There’s really no need to argue. “A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still”. However, I must admit that it’s a little odd to be told by others what “we” believe. In your attempt to pull no punches you list so many things out of context that it sounds odd even to me. Two or three pieces of a puzzle hardly give you the real picture.
My advice is to not rush into judgment so quickly about what you sound convinced it is we believe. I also think it is wise in trying to understand what it is we really believe to go directly to a member of the Church, and not to pastors of other churches to find out what it is Mormons believe. I certainly wouldn’t ask you what it is a Catholic believes. I’d go ask a Catholic. I’m not accusing you of doing that—just giving advice to not do that because I know from first hand experience that that practice is consistently repeated in various Christian churches nationwide. People think they know what’s in the Book of Mormon who have never sincerely read the Book of Mormon, because their church has some “expert” who’s already read it and made up their mind for them.
I don’t think anyone here believes “we’re the same”, but when you accuse us of believing we can save ourselves, you do err. You might want to go back to the original sources of those quotes you pulled out (ie: Spencer W. Kimball’s book Miracle of Forgiveness) and read on.
I would guess that there are some Church members who perhaps misunderstood our own doctrine/scriptures and think of the gospel as a gospel of works. However, that was the Law of Moses. The good news of the Gospel of Jesus Christ is that Christ saves! He even saves us from ourselves. When through our faith in Him we enter into a covenant relationship with Him through baptism, we turn ourselves over to Him. However, just like a husband and wife who enter into a marriage covenant are expected to be faithful to each other, He expects us to be faithful to Him and love Him more than we love anything or anyone else. Hence the scriptural analogy with Christ as the groom and the Church (and its members) as the bride.
The Book of Mormon clearly teaches, “Since man had fallen he could not merit anything of himself” (Alma 22:14). “There can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world” (Alma 34:12; see also 2 Ne. 9:7; Alma 34:8–16). “Wherefore, redemption cometh in and through the Holy Messiah; … he offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law” (2 Ne. 2:6–7). Consequently, “there is no flesh that can dwell in the presence of God, save it be through the merits, and mercy, and grace of the Holy Messiah” (2 Ne. 2:8). And so we “rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ … that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins” (2 Ne. 25:26).
I quote from Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the 12 Apostles:
“These teachings obviously stand in opposition to the belief or assumption of some mortals (perhaps even some members of our Church) that they have no need of Christ because they can save themselves by their own works.
“As members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we testify with the Book of Mormon prophet-king Benjamin that “there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent.
“For behold … salvation was, and is, and is to come, in and through the atoning blood of Christ” (Mosiah 3:17–18).
And so we say to all, in the words the prophet Moroni wrote as a conclusion to the Book of Mormon:
“Come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ. …
“And again, if ye by the grace of God are perfect in Christ, and deny not his power, then are ye sanctified in Christ by the grace of God, through the shedding of the blood of Christ, which is in the covenant of the Father unto the remission of your sins, that ye become holy, without spot” (Moroni 10:32–33).”
Mike, this is our doctrine. This is what you should judge us on–not obscure and out of context quotes of dead church leaders (none of whom were perfect). Judge us on the pure doctrine of Christ as so plainly found in The Book of Mormon–Another Testament of Jesus Christ. I testify that it is not just any other book, but the very word of God. As you read it, you will recognize His voice, for his “sheep hear [His] voice”. And there is a power in that book that can change lives. Millions have come to feel the truth of that book and the power it has to bring us to Christ and rely wholly on His merits, mercy, and grace (and not our own.) Take it or leave, it is exactly what it purports to be.
CC,
There is no anger whatsoever at Thad. I’m not angry with anyone.
OK, I’ll ask you. There’s a lot on the surface where it looks like what I’d agree with. It’s a matter of the semantics that gets played. “Elder” Oaks the “apostle” in the quote you sent says, “..that they (some people) have no need of Christ because they can save themselves by their own works.” I would say his quote is true in that don’t mormons believe that they do need Christ, but as Spencer Kimball chastising your church members said they “are doing nothing seriously (seeming implying that some wrong gets done) wrong except in their failures to do the right things to earn their salvation.” How did I get that wrong? When he said those words, was he a mere man, or was he getting direct revelation from god? Who decides which is which?
So are you telling me that mormons believe that we are saved by grace alone? There’s no effort on our part in the salvation “process” so to speak? Why would “president” Spencer chastise you for believing that?
I know I post this in almost every response. You tell me. Did Joseph Smith and Orson Pratt say we’re the whore of babylon, the Lord denounces us, we’ve corrupted all the earth by our fornications and wickedness, we’re all wrong, our creeds are abominations and we’re going to hell? I know they’re dead. From what I understand, they never changed their position on these. When they said those words, were they mere men, or were they getting direct revelation from god?
I gotta get some work done and then it’s off to the beach for the weekend!
Clean Cut’s blog brought me over here.
Another minister like Nathan engaging, that is good.
Dear Todd Wood: Thanks for connecting. I read your blog and your wording under “purpose of this blog” is perfect. Thanks for the encouragement. Keep going verse by verse, faithful to the Bible, the very words of God.
nathan.
Mike, please don’t get caught up so much in the semantics. It causes some people to look past the mark.
In the spirit of our discussion, I just thought you mind find this recent article interesting. It was just posted on http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/
SALT LAKE CITY 18 April 2008
“A respect for the diverse beliefs and unique contributions of all the world’s faiths is one of the hallmarks of Mormonism. From the earliest days of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Joseph Smith elevated the principle of religious liberty and tolerance: “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may” (Articles of Faith 1:11).
In that same spirit, Church President Thomas S. Monson made a plea during general conference, a semiannual worldwide meeting, for more religious understanding: “I would encourage members of the Church wherever they may be to show kindness and respect for all people everywhere. The world in which we live is filled with diversity. We can and should demonstrate respect toward those whose beliefs differ from ours.” Latter-day Saints accept all sincere believers as equals in the pursuit of faith and in the great work of serving humanity.
Emphasizing God’s love for all people, not just those of one religion, President Dieter F. Uchtdorf of the First Presidency, the highest governing body of the Church, declared: “We honor and respect sincere souls from all religions, no matter where or when they lived, who have loved God, even without having the fulness of the gospel. We lift our voices in gratitude for their selflessness and courage. We embrace them as brothers and sisters, children of our Heavenly Father. … He hears the prayers of the humble and sincere of every nation, tongue, and people. He grants light to those who seek and honor Him and are willing to obey His commandments.”
The late Krister Stendahl, emeritus Lutheran Bishop of Stockholm and professor emeritus of Harvard Divinity School, established three rules for religious understanding: (1) When you are trying to understand another religion, you should ask the adherents of that religion and not its enemies; (2) don’t compare your best to their worst; and (3) leave room for “holy envy” by finding elements in other faiths to emulate. These principles foster relationships between religions that build trust and lay the groundwork for charitable efforts.
The spiritual and physical needs of the world require goodwill and cooperation among different faiths. Each of them makes a valuable contribution to the larger community of believers. In the words of early Church apostle Orson F. Whitney, “God is using more than one people for the accomplishment of his great and marvelous work. The Latter-day Saints cannot do it all. It is too vast, too arduous, for any one people.” Thus, members of the Church do not view fellow believers around the world as adversaries or competitors, but as partners in the many causes for good in the world. For example, the Church has joined forces with Catholic Relief Services in a “collaboration of caring” that aids victims of famine and natural disaster. Furthermore, the Church worked with Islamic Relief Worldwide and the Islamic Society of Great Salt Lake to provide immediate humanitarian assistance in December 2004 to the tsunami-hit areas of Indonesia, Thailand and Sri Lanka.
It is important to note that interfaith cooperation does not require doctrinal compromise. Though the Church asserts its ecclesiastical independence and recognizes its doctrinal differences, this does not prevent it from partnering with other faiths in charitable projects. These efforts are based on universal values. A different interpretation of the atonement of Christ, for example, need not diminish the mandate of Christ to “love thy neighbor as thyself.” Therefore, it is necessary to maintain a separation between charitable efforts and doctrinal tenets, while at the same time sharing mutual concern for those in need. People of good faith do not need to have the exact same beliefs in order to accomplish great things in the service of their fellow human beings.”
Clean Cut,
Boy, I sure hope you cut and pasted that.
Semantics? You’ve GOT to be kidding me! Are you really telling me this is a matter semantics?
I think you’ve proved to me and anyone else reading this that there’s no way your going to address these issues. This last post is a smoke screen
Scientology, Amnesty International, Habitat for Humanity, Love Inc. All of these groups have done a great deal for humanity. I’m puzzled, when did I or any post bring up anything like, “People of good faith do not need to have the exact same beliefs in order to accomplish great things in the service of their fellow human beings?”
These are very grave positions we discuss here. What we believe makes the difference in our eternal destiny. I’m all for you and anyone else helping people when they need help.
From your quote of Krister Stendahl:
“When you are trying to understand another religion, you should ask the adherents of that religion and not its enemies.” I quoted your guys from what they’ve said and written. I did not go to an “enemy.”
“Don’t compare your best to their worst.” I didn’t compare anyone.
“Leave room for ‘holy envy’ by finding elements in other faiths to emulate.” Why would we need to “emulate” when what we’ve been asked to do and how to act has plainly been spelled out?
I need to stop. This is a rabbit trail.
Rabbit trail it is. Remember Nathan, like the cop or deputy said, “You care too much.” My coworkers often make little digging motions when I am discussing an eroneous subject. They are hinting that I am digging a tunnel. A very deep tunnel and way to focused on something that doesn’t matter.
However, I having been regularly checking the related posts to see where the conversation goes. I did like how at least one person answered your questions above.
thanks for reading, Chad. Undoubtedly, you are correct in your assessment. Let’s turn to other conversations in this wide world and be ready to seize upon an opportunity to give reason for the hope that lies within us. I do care about the gospel connecting with people open to its freedom. The light is getting a bit dim in this comment tunnel and so I am starting to dig myself out (little digging motions) digging upward until I poke out into the blinding light of reality and divine revelation. (Believe me, there are times in this conversation where I have known beyond a shadow of a doubt that I had fallen down a rabbit hole.
1) Would your faith and life be complete without Joseph Smith?
No.
2) Had the Church of the Latter Day Saints never been established through the prophethood of Joseph Smith and the succession of prophets after him, would their be a true church in the world today?
No. There would be churches with truth, much truth, and many good, honorable people in them, but not a true, authorized church.
3) If you did not have the Book of Mormon, would you graduate into the world to come to the level you aspire to achieve?
Two answers: 1-I believe that every person who has ever lived will be given the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel of Christ, and the Book of Mormon which teaches of Him. So, it would be possible for me to live life ignorant of the Book of Mormon and yet still ultimately “graduate to the level I aspire to achieve.”
2-However, in my current life now, it is study of the Book of Mormon, the Bible, and other scripture that gives me insight and strength to keep God’s commandments and ultimately receive the salvation I hope for, through Jesus Christ.
4) Is the embracing of the Book of Mormon as the words of God on the same level as the 66 Books of the Christian Bible necessary for salvation, entrance into the kingdom of God? Yes, ultimately. The underlying principle here is ongoing revelation through a prophet of the Lord. The Book of Mormon is just one of many books of scripture, divinely inspired, that I hope to read one day.
5) Is the testimony of Joseph Smith a foundation of your faith?
Yes. So is my testimony of the Book of Mormon. And of Thomas S. Monson as a prophet of God, and of Jesus Christ as my Savior and Redeemer.
6) Is your testimony of conversion a foundation of your faith?
Yes. I suspect we mean different things by the word conversion, but yes.
So there you go, answers to your original questions.
I think, though, that missionaries evading your questions is different from lying. As a former missionary myself, I suspect they were trying to avoid a spirit of contention. As missionaries, we rely on the Holy Ghost to teach us truth, and it does not teach truth in an atmosphere of hostility and defensiveness. These questions serve for you, I think, to highlight the things you find distasteful about the Mormon faith. I assume that behind each of them is a discussion of Why This Means that Mormons Are Not Christians or Not Like Us or something similar. As you may guess, that’s not the discussion the missionaries hope to have. Evading your questions, for a missionary, is not so much lying as it is trying to keep a contention-free atmosphere so that the Spirit can bear witness of the truths they are prepared to teach.
Emily: Your suspicions of me are off-mark. I truly am focused on the issue of dishonesty in Mormonism. I am grateful to you for straight-forward answers to my questions. These are quite helpful to me personally, as I learn more about the Mormon faith. Your answers, if they are “down-the-line” official answers in line with your prophets, then they do show how different the Mormon faith is from the Christian faith. In noticing these differences, I in no way mean to mock or scorn your Mormon faith. It is simply and significantly different. BTW, I have come up against the evasion of answers to avoid the spirit of contention as I have spoken to Mormon elders, and I appreciate this technique. However, I am a nice guy and have learned to remove any argumentative element to my conversations with Mormon elders. Take your straight forward answers as an example: I asked some questions; your answered them directly; and now I am responding. No contention but instead clarity. Bravo!
nathan.
Emily M,
You say that without Joseph Smith’s entrance onto the screen, “There would be churches with truth, much truth, and many good, honorable people in them, but not a true, authorized church.” Your leaders have called us “the whore of babylon”, “the Lord denounces us”, “we’ve corrupted all the earth by our fornications and wickedness”, “we’re all wrong, our creeds are abominations” and “we’re going to hell”…just to name a few.
It seem to me, that Joseph Smith’s assessment of the church before him wasn’t even close to your assessment that there’s “truth, much truth”. How could I misinterpreted a quote By Joseph that says “we’re all wrong”?
When Jesus said that He would “build His church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it”, it seem like hell actually did prevail against it. For nearly 2000 years, the was no truth, no Gospel. Why? because Joseph said that what we believed was “all wrong.” There was “no true true, authorized church.”
Nathan, There appears to be two distinct schools of thought during your interaction with Morman missionaries. Either of you can not make headway because of it. The missionaries want to explain Mormanism to you based on their terms, but you want to find out about it on your terms. Both of you are asking questions in response to questions, thus there is no headway.
That is a problem. I think we made some face to face headway this past week at our Saturday worship gathering at Evergreen Church, which we call “Recon,” short for Reconciliation. Michael invited two Mormon elders to join us and they actually showed. It was my privilege to drive them home to their apartment after dark. They profusely thanked me for not trapping them. One of them said, “We have heard horror stories of elders on mission put on the spot in Protestant churches or subjected to scorn.” Graciously we made space for them, warmly welcomed them, got to know them without the pressure of apologetics.
As to your observation that we cannot make headway in this unfolding comment line, I would say, that I am rather pleased with the log jam. This is precisely my point: Mormon faith is different than Christian faith. Hence, log jam. I have no agenda other than this when it comes to my apologetic endeavors with Mormons. They are seeking common ground and there is none. One has to be lost to be saved. If one thinks that he is OK, then the most deceptive of blindfolds prevents him from seeing the Way. The space we enjoyed this past Saturday night, were it expanded and sustained, could become the location in which an individual would discover the significant difference between Mormon faith and Christian faith, then float on the log jam waving arms in the air, crying out, “Save me, Lord Jesus! You are my King and my God!”
Nathan, I’ve really enjoyed the opportunity to have an “inter-faith” discussion. I would love to hear more about your visit with the missionaries.
Mike, your tone, I believe, is what might be contributing to the log jam. It comes across as very combative. We are only seeking for understanding and desiring that we be understood. I’ve got a sense through this thread that you’re constantly attempting to force your own version of LDS doctrine on the people rather than letting “official” LDS doctrine speak for itself. It reminds me of what’s been described as the “straw man” argument. You’re building “straw man” LDS doctrines by citing one or more LDS figures, as if such statements represent official LDS doctrine. “Not only do Mormons deny infallibility among their leadership, but we allow lay members and leaders alike, the free agency of publicly expressing personal opinions so long as they don’t run counter to “official” LDS teachings.”
I appreciate sincere discussion, but nobody in their right mind wants to participate in an argument. It’s easier to simply stay away and not comment at all.
Yet I still feel compelled to respond to your criticisms. The Apostasy was foreseen by the apostles (ie: 2 Thessalonians 2:1–3), as was the Restoration of all truth (ie: Acts 3:19–21). You can read the “official” LDS teachings about the apostasy and restoration on www.mormon.org under “basic beliefs”.
I’ve made a sincere attempt to explore how we might present a certain statement as to not only ensure that you understand, but that you might not misunderstand. It is the statement when Joseph Smith asked the Lord which church to join, and he “was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”
I posed the question to readers of my blog as to how they would respond to someone from another faith who might take offense at that. In the interest of full disclosure, I thought I’d share a compilation of some of what they had to say:
One commenter: “I’m not quite sure that there is need for anyone to take offense to the statement mentioned BECAUSE I don’t feel like God was saying all of the people who were practicing those various faiths were an abomination, but rather, that the preachers who were preaching damnation to all who didn’t join their church were an abomination. I feel like that statement was more of a distaste for what was being taught, which was not what Christ had taught, that was an abomination to God.”
Another commenter:
“Abomination” may seem like strong language to us, but maybe that’s because we’re not God. Try to look at it from something like his perspective: if divine authority really does matter — and it’s certainly reasonable to propose that God might think it does — then any church that falsely claims to have divine authority is likely to seem pretty abominable to God. And any church that claims to preach eternal truth without a claim to divine authority isn’t going to be much better. With this issue as with so many others, the question is whether or not Joseph Smith saw and heard what he claims he saw and heard. If, in fact, God the Father and Jesus Christ appeared to him and said what he reports they said, then our opinion about what they said doesn’t really matter much — our job is to listen and heed. If, however, God and Jesus Christ did not appear to him and say those things, then we should ignore his report of the experience altogether. Either way, our opinion about the word “abomination” is pretty much irrelevant, I think.”
Another response:
“I’d like to think that the “abomination” lies not within the members or clergy who with a pure heart attend their church, but those who knowingly pervert the Lord’s word by molding it into something that fits their own agenda, which I think are few in number. I would also like to think that the vast majority of people who attend their individual churches have the best intentions and worship according to their conscience, just as we do in our own church. I don’t think it’s wrong for us to believe that we have the truth, because doesn’t everyone believe that they are right? At the same time, if we have the fullness of truth, does that equal a monopoly on truth? I personally don’t think so.”
One more commenter:
“Members of the LDS Church don’t hate members of other churches. That is not where the conflict lies. The teachings of the apostate churches are hypocritical and abominations. I believe the exact quote is, “I was answered that I must join none of them [the then-current churches], for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.” (Joseph Smith History 1:19)
We love people of other faiths! Most protestants I’ve met are warm, caring, decent people who genuinely follow the Savior’s path!
We also know that God does not like His truth distorted, nor does he look kindly on those who knowingly twist His words. These “professors” aren’t necessarily all pastors and teachers, but many of them are. Joseph Smith ran up against a good number of them in his lifetime.”
One last commenter (not a Mormon):
“Personally speaking, I don’t take offence at the “…all other churches/creeds are abominations…” statement. Of course, it might give the post-modernist more ammunition to fire his gun with and further his contempt that all transcedent truth are mere power statements.
“I liken J.Smith’s claim about all other creeds as abominations (we’ll assume it’s a claim at the moment) to Jesus’ claim of being the only Way, Truth and Life in John 14. In the same way that Jesus was asserting His uniqueness, the same might be said for J. Smith’s assertion for the LDS church’s uniqueness =)
“With Jesus’ example, he backed-up everything he said with miracles, through excorcisms, power over the elements, healing the sick, raising the dead etc. and through prophecies, which were to come true. I mean, can you imagine the look on people’s faces as he claimed to be the ONLY way to the Father? I don’t think the people were ready to hear the claim as I’m sure they were asking for an objective way to the Father…and not the fact that THE way is through Jesus alone?! It is of no wonder that Jesus was charged with blasphemy =) But the dilemma for them I guess is, with Jesus’ ability to create all these miracles - AND claim to be the ONLY WAY - what can you do but believe him?
“So, I guess the issue is not about how to communicate the LDS church’s uniqueness in a ‘neighbourly’ way - in much the same way that Jesus did not dress up his claims in a ‘neighbourly’ fashion either…the issue is: if it is true (that the LDS church is the only true church), then it is to be CELEBRATED! Because if truth is truth, it will stand up to any scrutiny =)
“In the same way that if Jesus really did die on the cross and was raised up on the third day, then it is also the most wonderful news.”
Nathan, Given the many comments to your interactions with Mormans article above, I find it amazing the raw number amount in comparison to your other blog writings. So, we are up to 27 comments huh? This is rather non-normal compared to if any comments are posted they range usually from 2-4. The next highest had 7 when I looked back in the monthly archives. It appears their was much response to your recent writing especially outside the PCA faith that greatly contributed to a conversation. Perhaps even more comments could have been posted, but I would venture you tried to choose them carefully. Overall, the interaction spurred a distinctly different dialog typical to the past to which I felt was a blessed event. I find it very important to understnad the differences in religions. The more I academically study other ones, I find myself believing I am on the right path. Overall, it is a faith based decision, but I enjoy the learning the differences instead of following blindly. I feel you should be commended on this article posting.
you are most welcome, Chad. I am learning much myself through this interchange.
1) Would your faith and life be complete without Joseph Smith?
Joseph Smith teaches me more about Jesus Christ and God than I would otherwise be able to know. His work and teachings also gives me more of an opportunity to appropriately contextualize the teachings within the bible. The Church God had him establish is the way of life I have chosen for myself. However, if Joseph Smith had not been the one who God manifested his will to, I am sure he would have called a different person to be his prophet and to expund his will and teachings. So, I guess I can answer yes and no, depending on what you mean by “Jospeh Smith”. Do you mean the Individual or the role and connection to Christ the individual provided?
2) Had the Church of the Latter Day Saints never been established through the prophethood of Joseph Smith and the succession of prophets after him, would their be a true church in the world today?
If it hadn’t been established through, Joseph Smith, I believe God would have found another to establish it through.
3) If you did not have the Book of Mormon, would you graduate into the world to come to the level you aspire to achieve?
I think the teachings in the Book of Mormon give us more information about Jesus Christ than are available in the bible and help to clarify many things which are unclear in the bible. Things such as the purpose of the atonement, the nature of agency, the nature of god, theodicy, the purpose of life, the divinity of Christ, etc. Personally, I do believe that the Book of Mormon enables a faith increase in man that allows for more open and direct revelatory dialogue with God, but I think all the information in the Book of Mormon could also be available to man via personal revelation as well. The Book of Mormon just helps facilitate that process. For me personally, I wouldn’t even believe in Jesus Christ without the Book of Mormon. (I converted to Christianity from atheism due to interaction with God because of the Book of Mormon)
4) Is the embracing of the Book of Mormon as the words of God on the same level as the 66 Books of the Christian Bible necessary for salvation, entrance into the kingdom of God?
Yes, in that neither is necasary for salvation. Embracing Jesus Christ and his Gospel is necassary for salvation. Many people can not read, and will never have proplific knowledge of the contents of either book, but will be saved.
5) Is the testimony of Joseph Smith a foundation of your faith?
If you mean, is the fact that Joseph Smith saw God the Father and Jesus Christ and what that implies about the teachings I follow, and the fact that I believe he really did see them nd they really did bestow authority upon him, then yes, it’s foundational. Is that what you meant?
6) Is your testimony of conversion a foundation of your faith?
Yes, defenitely. Turning toward Christ, giving up our personal wills to be swallowed by the will of our Lord and Redeemer. Repenting of our Sins. Coming unto Christ. Personal conversion is essential to my faith.
Hope this helps you.
Nathan,
See, here it is again. It’s all in the semantics.
It’s like CC does, it’s a softball way of insulting us.
“Book of Mormon give us more information about Jesus Christ than are available in the bible and help to clarify many things which are unclear in the bible. Things such as the purpose of the atonement…”. We’re not clear on the atonement?
Notice the word “bible” is in lower case and the “Book of Mormon” is in caps.
I did read Matt W’s conversion story. It’s another proof that God’s plan of Election is an awesome force.