Comments on: The Scarlet Letter on NPR through Updike’s Eyes http://nathanlewis.org/2008/03/06/the-scarlet-letter-on-npr-through-updikes-eyes/ living the gospel Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:29:15 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.7 by: nathan http://nathanlewis.org/2008/03/06/the-scarlet-letter-on-npr-through-updikes-eyes/#comment-71696 Sun, 27 Apr 2008 23:49:52 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2008/03/06/the-scarlet-letter-on-npr-through-updikes-eyes/#comment-71696 Your idea is not idiotic or inappropriate in my opinion. From personal experience and through the experiences of those whom I have referred to professional counselors, I would answer your simple question, "I have investigated and hold sufficient proof of real healing and progress resulting from the work of professional counselors. Of course, it is not merely up to me to take my personal experience and make such sweeping statements and decisions and so, I have entered into discussions and deliberations with a good number of fellow ministers and licensed counselors who also confirm that my personal experience is not isolated." Having offered such an answer I must say that a Pastor must be careful in referring a member under his care to a counselor, psychologist, and/or psychiatrist. Not every licensed individual is a good match for any given person who needs help. The Pastor does not refer to be free of responsibility, saving time and trouble. The referral process is often a time consuming one requiring much prayer, interviewing between Pastor and counselor. I am not uncommon in my office in my development of a short list of licensed counselors and therapists, whom I trust and respect, who would work better than others with people I serve in our portion of the church. For many members of my church, whose employers provide benefits that would cover counseling, they are confined to meeting with licensed counselors who are "on the employer's insurance company's list." If a person avails himself/herself of these benefits, then I have little to no input on the counselor selected. In these situations, I can meet with the member and supply a few criteria for initial interview towards the selection of the best counselor available under that system. Beyond what I have described above, I do not see much more that a Pastor is responsible to do for a member. As Pastors, we are to faithfully preach the gospel, lead worship, promote fellowship and pray ardently for the flock. We may counsel, but an ironic twist is inserted at this point by people who insist that the Pastor ought to be the primary or only counselor of his church's members: This insistence is born out of a rejection of modern counseling and Psychology. But the notion and method of a Pastor meeting one on one with a member to engage in counseling methodology, even though it be the application of biblical principles, is nonetheless, the very modern idea of counseling and Psychology rejected. In our system of government in the church that I serve (Presbyterian), there is more room and precedent for Ruling Elders to advise and to counsel and for Deacons to do the same. Men counseling men and women counseling women is also advisable and so members interacting with members can be as fruitful as an officer counseling a member. Your idea is not idiotic or inappropriate in my opinion. From personal experience and through the experiences of those whom I have referred to professional counselors, I would answer your simple question, “I have investigated and hold sufficient proof of real healing and progress resulting from the work of professional counselors. Of course, it is not merely up to me to take my personal experience and make such sweeping statements and decisions and so, I have entered into discussions and deliberations with a good number of fellow ministers and licensed counselors who also confirm that my personal experience is not isolated.” Having offered such an answer I must say that a Pastor must be careful in referring a member under his care to a counselor, psychologist, and/or psychiatrist. Not every licensed individual is a good match for any given person who needs help. The Pastor does not refer to be free of responsibility, saving time and trouble. The referral process is often a time consuming one requiring much prayer, interviewing between Pastor and counselor. I am not uncommon in my office in my development of a short list of licensed counselors and therapists, whom I trust and respect, who would work better than others with people I serve in our portion of the church. For many members of my church, whose employers provide benefits that would cover counseling, they are confined to meeting with licensed counselors who are “on the employer’s insurance company’s list.” If a person avails himself/herself of these benefits, then I have little to no input on the counselor selected. In these situations, I can meet with the member and supply a few criteria for initial interview towards the selection of the best counselor available under that system. Beyond what I have described above, I do not see much more that a Pastor is responsible to do for a member. As Pastors, we are to faithfully preach the gospel, lead worship, promote fellowship and pray ardently for the flock. We may counsel, but an ironic twist is inserted at this point by people who insist that the Pastor ought to be the primary or only counselor of his church’s members: This insistence is born out of a rejection of modern counseling and Psychology. But the notion and method of a Pastor meeting one on one with a member to engage in counseling methodology, even though it be the application of biblical principles, is nonetheless, the very modern idea of counseling and Psychology rejected. In our system of government in the church that I serve (Presbyterian), there is more room and precedent for Ruling Elders to advise and to counsel and for Deacons to do the same. Men counseling men and women counseling women is also advisable and so members interacting with members can be as fruitful as an officer counseling a member.

]]> by: berta http://nathanlewis.org/2008/03/06/the-scarlet-letter-on-npr-through-updikes-eyes/#comment-71632 Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:08:54 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2008/03/06/the-scarlet-letter-on-npr-through-updikes-eyes/#comment-71632 My sole question is whether "professional counselors" are able to heal the broken and complicated -- or the otherwise needy. If you believe this and direct people to follow this course, don't you think it would only be right to thoroughly investigate and prove that it in fact is effective? Perhaps my idea is as idiotic or inappropriate as you make it out to be. But, as humbly as I can,I just ask. My sole question is whether “professional counselors” are able to heal the broken and complicated — or the otherwise needy. If you believe this and direct people to follow this course, don’t you think it would only be right to thoroughly investigate and prove that it in fact is effective? Perhaps my idea is as idiotic or inappropriate as you make it out to be. But, as humbly as I can,I just ask.

]]> by: nathan http://nathanlewis.org/2008/03/06/the-scarlet-letter-on-npr-through-updikes-eyes/#comment-71588 Sat, 26 Apr 2008 17:58:46 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2008/03/06/the-scarlet-letter-on-npr-through-updikes-eyes/#comment-71588 Thank you, for thinking of me and my needs. I don't know if you are assuming that I have not sought help for my problems, and so, you are kindly suggesting that I avail myself of professional counseling, or if you are assuming that I have placed myself in a different and more blessed category than "broken and complicated women," and thus need professional counseling. These assumptions would not move anyone to understand my present condition or situation, let alone my present ongoing plan for my well-being. I do not think of myself in a different category of those I have tried to serve as a pastor. Nevertheless, I hold an office through which I am to serve others, and my point in above comments is that I have sinfully failed in that office. Over the past 20 years of pastoral ministry, I have sinfully failed in a number of areas. Of interest to me has been a certain, common response from some of the individuals who have sought my pastoral counsel and help. The common response that I refer to is often expressed, "Well, you are not perfect, Pastor and so you should go get some help." What these individuals say is absolutely true about me. I am imperfect and I do need help. What is absolutely wrong about this response is that it has nothing to do with the purpose of our meeting to help along the person who has sought me out as Pastor. A person enters into a meeting with me and says, "I have a problem......" Then I say, "This is what you need to do....." The person responds, "Well, Pastor, you are not perfect and so perhaps you should take your own advice." What a deflection of the solution! The counseling session is not about counselor and counselee on the same plane, confessing their faults to each other and helping each other get to a solution. The point of a counseling session is for a counselor to help the counselee. It is not an opportunity to talk about or solve the counselor's problems. Every once in a while a person says to me, "I am going to take your advice," then actually leaves the counseling meeting to do it. I have kindly told many people, "Millions of people have the same problem that you have. If you would like to be a part of a rare and small group, a handful of people, then take my advice and be free of your problem. Most people hear advice and then don't implement it, choosing another route or usually remaining in their present behavior. Once again, I must say that my strength is identifying the problem and describing the solution. My glaring weakness in counseling (making me a poor counselor) is identifying reasonable and achievable steps for a counselee to take between A and B. Thank you, for thinking of me and my needs. I don’t know if you are assuming that I have not sought help for my problems, and so, you are kindly suggesting that I avail myself of professional counseling, or if you are assuming that I have placed myself in a different and more blessed category than “broken and complicated women,” and thus need professional counseling. These assumptions would not move anyone to understand my present condition or situation, let alone my present ongoing plan for my well-being. I do not think of myself in a different category of those I have tried to serve as a pastor. Nevertheless, I hold an office through which I am to serve others, and my point in above comments is that I have sinfully failed in that office.
Over the past 20 years of pastoral ministry, I have sinfully failed in a number of areas. Of interest to me has been a certain, common response from some of the individuals who have sought my pastoral counsel and help. The common response that I refer to is often expressed, “Well, you are not perfect, Pastor and so you should go get some help.” What these individuals say is absolutely true about me. I am imperfect and I do need help. What is absolutely wrong about this response is that it has nothing to do with the purpose of our meeting to help along the person who has sought me out as Pastor. A person enters into a meeting with me and says, “I have a problem……” Then I say, “This is what you need to do…..” The person responds, “Well, Pastor, you are not perfect and so perhaps you should take your own advice.” What a deflection of the solution! The counseling session is not about counselor and counselee on the same plane, confessing their faults to each other and helping each other get to a solution. The point of a counseling session is for a counselor to help the counselee. It is not an opportunity to talk about or solve the counselor’s problems. Every once in a while a person says to me, “I am going to take your advice,” then actually leaves the counseling meeting to do it. I have kindly told many people, “Millions of people have the same problem that you have. If you would like to be a part of a rare and small group, a handful of people, then take my advice and be free of your problem. Most people hear advice and then don’t implement it, choosing another route or usually remaining in their present behavior. Once again, I must say that my strength is identifying the problem and describing the solution. My glaring weakness in counseling (making me a poor counselor) is identifying reasonable and achievable steps for a counselee to take between A and B.

]]> by: berta http://nathanlewis.org/2008/03/06/the-scarlet-letter-on-npr-through-updikes-eyes/#comment-71585 Sat, 26 Apr 2008 16:07:52 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2008/03/06/the-scarlet-letter-on-npr-through-updikes-eyes/#comment-71585 There's a lot of words there. The ones you use to describe yourself: sinful, imperfect, fail -- how is it any different than the ones with which you described the women: broken and complicated?" If you send them off to a professional counselor in the Beaverton/Portland area, would you go yourself and learn whether real healing is available? There’s a lot of words there. The ones you use to describe yourself: sinful, imperfect, fail — how is it any different than the ones with which you described the women: broken and complicated?” If you send them off to a professional counselor in the Beaverton/Portland area, would you go yourself and learn whether real healing is available?

]]> by: nathan http://nathanlewis.org/2008/03/06/the-scarlet-letter-on-npr-through-updikes-eyes/#comment-71127 Wed, 23 Apr 2008 00:00:28 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2008/03/06/the-scarlet-letter-on-npr-through-updikes-eyes/#comment-71127 Indeed, Berta. In the past I have been guilty of pressing women too far and so in recent years I have been careful to assign women to women for counseling, even women who are members of the congregation I serve. On three occasions in the past, with three different women, I have "pulled out the pillows propping up" women in difficult relationships and seasons of their lives. In my mind, the pillows had to go, but in hind sight, these women could not cope without them. I have also been harsh in tone, forcing my counsel, rather than advising, realizing that I can not force anyone to do what I think they must do to survive and to thrive in Christ. This has made safe space evaporate for these women who are dearly loved of Christ. I have also taken much too personally these women's remarks about my life and performance as a minister. In all three past instances, the best I could have done for these women is to advise each to see a professional counselor who is not a member of the clergy. One of the problems with pastoral counseling, is that the person who needs counseling cannot separate in his/her mind, the pastor as counselor and the pastor as preacher, and so, the person is unable to hear the gospel from the lips of his/her pastor. Another coming of terms for me has been to admit to myself and to my fellow elders that I am not an effectively skilled counselor. I am able to identify the problem at the root of a person, form an action plan and then demand that the action plan be immediately executed. An effective counselor knows which steps a person must take to get from A to B and then knows how to help the person get along from A to B. I can identify A and B and then I demand that a person take an immediate leap frog jump from A to B. I do not fault any of these three women or anyone else I have hurt as I have sinfully and imperfectly served as a pastor. Instead I have written them or met with them at their invitation to confess my sins, regret and ask their forgiveness. I pray for them often and remind myself that Jesus alone is our Shepherd, elder, pastor, counselor, and Redeemer. Where I have failed these women, making the church unsafe for them, Christ has remained faithful for he cannot deny himself. Indeed, Berta. In the past I have been guilty of pressing women too far and so in recent years I have been careful to assign women to women for counseling, even women who are members of the congregation I serve. On three occasions in the past, with three different women, I have “pulled out the pillows propping up” women in difficult relationships and seasons of their lives. In my mind, the pillows had to go, but in hind sight, these women could not cope without them. I have also been harsh in tone, forcing my counsel, rather than advising, realizing that I can not force anyone to do what I think they must do to survive and to thrive in Christ. This has made safe space evaporate for these women who are dearly loved of Christ. I have also taken much too personally these women’s remarks about my life and performance as a minister. In all three past instances, the best I could have done for these women is to advise each to see a professional counselor who is not a member of the clergy. One of the problems with pastoral counseling, is that the person who needs counseling cannot separate in his/her mind, the pastor as counselor and the pastor as preacher, and so, the person is unable to hear the gospel from the lips of his/her pastor.
Another coming of terms for me has been to admit to myself and to my fellow elders that I am not an effectively skilled counselor. I am able to identify the problem at the root of a person, form an action plan and then demand that the action plan be immediately executed. An effective counselor knows which steps a person must take to get from A to B and then knows how to help the person get along from A to B. I can identify A and B and then I demand that a person take an immediate leap frog jump from A to B.
I do not fault any of these three women or anyone else I have hurt as I have sinfully and imperfectly served as a pastor. Instead I have written them or met with them at their invitation to confess my sins, regret and ask their forgiveness. I pray for them often and remind myself that Jesus alone is our Shepherd, elder, pastor, counselor, and Redeemer. Where I have failed these women, making the church unsafe for them, Christ has remained faithful for he cannot deny himself.

]]> by: Berta http://nathanlewis.org/2008/03/06/the-scarlet-letter-on-npr-through-updikes-eyes/#comment-71119 Tue, 22 Apr 2008 19:59:28 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2008/03/06/the-scarlet-letter-on-npr-through-updikes-eyes/#comment-71119 Yes. The church can be an unsafe place for broken, complicated women. Yes. The church can be an unsafe place for broken, complicated women.

]]> by: nathan http://nathanlewis.org/2008/03/06/the-scarlet-letter-on-npr-through-updikes-eyes/#comment-66864 Tue, 11 Mar 2008 17:46:18 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2008/03/06/the-scarlet-letter-on-npr-through-updikes-eyes/#comment-66864 Church experience, along with human experience, has not substantially changed from era to era. What happened in New England Puritanism happens in our day. The Church in every age must make space for the Gospel. nathan. Church experience, along with human experience, has not substantially changed from era to era. What happened in New England Puritanism happens in our day. The Church in every age must make space for the Gospel.
nathan.

]]> by: Dennis Griffith http://nathanlewis.org/2008/03/06/the-scarlet-letter-on-npr-through-updikes-eyes/#comment-66800 Tue, 11 Mar 2008 02:31:13 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2008/03/06/the-scarlet-letter-on-npr-through-updikes-eyes/#comment-66800 Nathan, Thanks for this article. It speaks directly to issues our Elders our wrestling with at Walnut Hill PCA. We are asking how we can love the world around us in practical & tangilbe ways. I had never thought of a contrat with Hawthorne's Scarlet Letter. -Dennis Nathan,

Thanks for this article. It speaks directly to issues our Elders our wrestling with at Walnut Hill PCA. We are asking how we can love the world around us in practical & tangilbe ways. I had never thought of a contrat with Hawthorne’s Scarlet Letter.

-Dennis

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