Comments on: The Gospel and the Seventh Day Adventists of Newberg, Oregon http://nathanlewis.org/2007/11/14/the-gospel-and-the-seventh-day-adventist-of-newberg-oregon/ living the gospel Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:26:12 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.0.7 by: nathan http://nathanlewis.org/2007/11/14/the-gospel-and-the-seventh-day-adventist-of-newberg-oregon/#comment-92403 Mon, 13 Oct 2008 04:12:01 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2007/11/14/the-gospel-and-the-seventh-day-adventist-of-newberg-oregon/#comment-92403 Your are correct, Melissa, if by "faith" you are making reference to the gospel of Jesus Christ as opposed to religion. The redemptive history of the Bible leads us to true freedom in Christ not to a religious system of robotic, even ernest works righteousness. Your point is well put in its content and has no need of being written in caps. When you write in caps, some readers might think that you are angry and others might think that you think that what you have to say is more important than what others, who use lower caps, might have to contribute. Keep the faith! Your are correct, Melissa, if by “faith” you are making reference to the gospel of Jesus Christ as opposed to religion. The redemptive history of the Bible leads us to true freedom in Christ not to a religious system of robotic, even ernest works righteousness. Your point is well put in its content and has no need of being written in caps. When you write in caps, some readers might think that you are angry and others might think that you think that what you have to say is more important than what others, who use lower caps, might have to contribute. Keep the faith!

]]> by: MELISSA http://nathanlewis.org/2007/11/14/the-gospel-and-the-seventh-day-adventist-of-newberg-oregon/#comment-92400 Mon, 13 Oct 2008 02:54:12 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2007/11/14/the-gospel-and-the-seventh-day-adventist-of-newberg-oregon/#comment-92400 I HAVE HAD FRIENDS AND RECENTLY DATED A SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST. I AM LUTHERAN. I SAW HIS DEVOTION TO THE RELIGION AND THE CHURCH A CHORE NOT SOMETHING WHICH CAME NATURALLY OR WILLINGLY. HE WAS A ROBOT, HIS WORDS, HIS ACTIONS, HIS BELIEFS. HE DIDN'T PURSUE LIFE, OR THE GIFTS GOD GAVE HIM. EVERY CONVERSATION HAD A RELIGIOUS COMMENTARY. IT IS A SHAME THAT THERE ARE SO MANY SO CALLED RELIGIONS THAT ARE BRAINWASHING PEOPLE INTO FOLLOWING THEM, GIVING THEM MONEY, ETC. RELIGION IS MAN MADE. ONE FLAW SHOULD KNOCK DOWN THE RELIGION. BUT EVEN FAMOUS PEOPLE FOLLOW THESE CULTS. I BELIEVE GOD PUT EACH OF US ON THIS EARTH FOR A PURPOSE. OUR RELIGION SHOULD NOT IMPRISON US, OR CONTROL OUR LIVES, OR ACTIONS. NOBODY OR ANYTHING CAN EVER TAKE MY FAITH AWAY, PEOPLE WHO CAN'T HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT THEIR RELIGION CAN'T HAVE A STRONG FAITH IN IT. THEIR EYES AND EARS ARE CLOSED. I GUESS THE TRUTH COULD FORCE THEM TO REALIZE THEIR FAITH IN SDA (OR WHATEVER RELIGION) IS NOT SO UNSHAKEABLE. I HAVE HAD FRIENDS AND RECENTLY DATED A SEVENTH DAY ADVENTIST. I AM LUTHERAN. I SAW HIS DEVOTION TO THE RELIGION AND THE CHURCH A CHORE NOT SOMETHING WHICH CAME NATURALLY OR WILLINGLY. HE WAS A ROBOT, HIS WORDS, HIS ACTIONS, HIS BELIEFS. HE DIDN’T PURSUE LIFE, OR THE GIFTS GOD GAVE HIM. EVERY CONVERSATION HAD A RELIGIOUS COMMENTARY. IT IS A SHAME THAT THERE ARE SO MANY SO CALLED RELIGIONS THAT ARE BRAINWASHING PEOPLE INTO FOLLOWING THEM, GIVING THEM MONEY, ETC. RELIGION IS MAN MADE. ONE FLAW SHOULD KNOCK DOWN THE RELIGION. BUT EVEN FAMOUS PEOPLE FOLLOW THESE CULTS. I BELIEVE GOD PUT EACH OF US ON THIS EARTH FOR A PURPOSE. OUR RELIGION SHOULD NOT IMPRISON US, OR CONTROL OUR LIVES, OR ACTIONS. NOBODY OR ANYTHING CAN EVER TAKE MY FAITH AWAY, PEOPLE WHO CAN’T HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT THEIR RELIGION CAN’T HAVE A STRONG FAITH IN IT. THEIR EYES AND EARS ARE CLOSED. I GUESS THE TRUTH COULD FORCE THEM TO REALIZE THEIR FAITH IN SDA (OR WHATEVER RELIGION) IS NOT SO UNSHAKEABLE.

]]> by: nathan http://nathanlewis.org/2007/11/14/the-gospel-and-the-seventh-day-adventist-of-newberg-oregon/#comment-51437 Fri, 16 Nov 2007 17:10:15 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2007/11/14/the-gospel-and-the-seventh-day-adventist-of-newberg-oregon/#comment-51437 well put, Joe. We are all inconsistently holding to our particular belief systems. What is remarkable is that some of us are inconsistent with major pillars of our belief systems. Stepping away from individual case studies, like your father, to see how common your father's inconsistency is, we are confronted with how the church on a large scale could shift significantly in one generation's time. Reunion among divided demoninations is a possibility. Shedding heresies like snake skins is also possible. This past week some of us received news reports of Bill Hybels saying to a crowd at a church growth seminar that he and Willow Creek (a church of 18,000 plus people) have been wrong in their pushing of their church growth methods. He admitted that they could draw a crowd, but that they have been failures at building the church. The big shift coming down the pike in our life time is continental. Africa is the new center of the church and we are once again in the hinterlands. (Actually, Oregon has always been hinterland.) The African church is much more conservative than the American church. Times, they are a'changin'. Institutions and organizations change at a slower pace than the individuals and groups within them. I think that the Church is in better shape today than our present organizations and institutions allow us to see. There is more organic unity in the church, for example, right now, than our distinct institutions communicate. One day, we will awake and a seemingly swift earthquake will have leveled the structures and we will be one huddled mass of sisters and brothers. But only the appearance will have been "swift." It is actually a process that is unfolding even now. A significant part of this process is the refining of individual's belief systems. The first edition of "Kingdom of the Cults," included the Seventh Day Adventists on its list of American cults. In the final edition of this book, several major denominations of the Seventh Day Adventists had been removed and Martin included his findings of them to be orthodox in their understanding and embracing of the gospel. Last night, after our elders's meeting in the Seventh Day Adventist church building, Frank and I were talking to the interim Pastor, Bill, who was installing kitchen cabinets, with his wife, in the fellowship hall. We discovered that the two of them have recently returned from Papau New Guinea, where he was a missionary pilot for the Seventh Day Adventist Church for many years. They have spent their lives (even raising their kids to adulthood) in the jungles. Bill told us that an MAF (Missionary Aviation Fellowship - a fundamentalist, evangelical mission agency) pilot trained him to fly jungle missions as Bill was the first missionary pilot to serve the Seventh Day Adventist Church. Over the years Bill work with Roman Catholic missionary pilots and Wycliffe JARS pilots. "We had to work together, delivering each other's provisions and supplies. We rescued each other. Once, I was stranded in the jungle out of fuel and a Roman Catholic pilot flew to my rescue." It appears to me that in these mission settings, where we work together in a hot spot where the need looms greater than our petty differences, the unity of Christ's church is repaired and manifest. The church assigns her scholars and theologians to sit together, to bang out theology and statements for groups to sign, attempting unity on paper. These ecumenical movements are necessary, but I am not sure that they are as effective in bringing us together as the mission field. The Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Seventh Day Adventists, Baptists and Pentecostals send mission teams to Guatamala City and all of them agree and immediately join hands to do what Christ would do in that place: feed the poor; free the captive; care for the widow and the orphan; preach the gospel. well put, Joe. We are all inconsistently holding to our particular belief systems. What is remarkable is that some of us are inconsistent with major pillars of our belief systems. Stepping away from individual case studies, like your father, to see how common your father’s inconsistency is, we are confronted with how the church on a large scale could shift significantly in one generation’s time. Reunion among divided demoninations is a possibility. Shedding heresies like snake skins is also possible. This past week some of us received news reports of Bill Hybels saying to a crowd at a church growth seminar that he and Willow Creek (a church of 18,000 plus people) have been wrong in their pushing of their church growth methods. He admitted that they could draw a crowd, but that they have been failures at building the church. The big shift coming down the pike in our life time is continental. Africa is the new center of the church and we are once again in the hinterlands. (Actually, Oregon has always been hinterland.) The African church is much more conservative than the American church. Times, they are a’changin’.
Institutions and organizations change at a slower pace than the individuals and groups within them. I think that the Church is in better shape today than our present organizations and institutions allow us to see. There is more organic unity in the church, for example, right now, than our distinct institutions communicate. One day, we will awake and a seemingly swift earthquake will have leveled the structures and we will be one huddled mass of sisters and brothers. But only the appearance will have been “swift.” It is actually a process that is unfolding even now.
A significant part of this process is the refining of individual’s belief systems.
The first edition of “Kingdom of the Cults,” included the Seventh Day Adventists on its list of American cults. In the final edition of this book, several major denominations of the Seventh Day Adventists had been removed and Martin included his findings of them to be orthodox in their understanding and embracing of the gospel.
Last night, after our elders’s meeting in the Seventh Day Adventist church building, Frank and I were talking to the interim Pastor, Bill, who was installing kitchen cabinets, with his wife, in the fellowship hall. We discovered that the two of them have recently returned from Papau New Guinea, where he was a missionary pilot for the Seventh Day Adventist Church for many years. They have spent their lives (even raising their kids to adulthood) in the jungles. Bill told us that an MAF (Missionary Aviation Fellowship - a fundamentalist, evangelical mission agency) pilot trained him to fly jungle missions as Bill was the first missionary pilot to serve the Seventh Day Adventist Church. Over the years Bill work with Roman Catholic missionary pilots and Wycliffe JARS pilots. “We had to work together, delivering each other’s provisions and supplies. We rescued each other. Once, I was stranded in the jungle out of fuel and a Roman Catholic pilot flew to my rescue.”
It appears to me that in these mission settings, where we work together in a hot spot where the need looms greater than our petty differences, the unity of Christ’s church is repaired and manifest. The church assigns her scholars and theologians to sit together, to bang out theology and statements for groups to sign, attempting unity on paper. These ecumenical movements are necessary, but I am not sure that they are as effective in bringing us together as the mission field.
The Lutherans, Roman Catholics, Seventh Day Adventists, Baptists and Pentecostals send mission teams to Guatamala City and all of them agree and immediately join hands to do what Christ would do in that place: feed the poor; free the captive; care for the widow and the orphan; preach the gospel.

]]> by: Joe Staub http://nathanlewis.org/2007/11/14/the-gospel-and-the-seventh-day-adventist-of-newberg-oregon/#comment-51191 Wed, 14 Nov 2007 23:10:29 +0000 http://nathanlewis.org/2007/11/14/the-gospel-and-the-seventh-day-adventist-of-newberg-oregon/#comment-51191 This is an interesting observation. It makes me realize how often I am surprised by what people actually believe after I get to know them. Stereo typing must run deep in the human psyche. Conversely, I find that people often have pre-conceptions about my Calvinistic orientation that make me feel as though I am terribly misunderstood. I would say, perhaps on another level, that ideas and belief systems do have consequences. For instance, my father is a very committed Roman Catholic who tows the line on Catholic dogma. He would never question the Church's stand on the possibility of achieving salvation through good works along with the atonement of Jesus, but at the same time he can give assent to free grace after reading Chuck Swindol's book, "Amazing Grace". What am I to believe about him? Does he believe in salvation by grace alone or by Jesus and works? You can't have both, can you? Perhaps he is like these Seventh Day Adventist Elders who may not truly believe "all" of their chosen belief system, but at heart embrace the truth of the Gospel - in spite of.... Joe This is an interesting observation. It makes me realize how often I am surprised by what people actually believe after I get to know them. Stereo typing must run deep in the human psyche. Conversely, I find that people often have pre-conceptions about my Calvinistic orientation that make me feel as though I am terribly misunderstood. I would say, perhaps on another level, that ideas and belief systems do have consequences. For instance, my father is a very committed Roman Catholic who tows the line on Catholic dogma. He would never question the Church’s stand on the possibility of achieving salvation through good works along with the atonement of Jesus, but at the same time he can give assent to free grace after reading Chuck Swindol’s book, “Amazing Grace”. What am I to believe about him? Does he believe in salvation by grace alone or by Jesus and works? You can’t have both, can you? Perhaps he is like these Seventh Day Adventist Elders who may not truly believe “all” of their chosen belief system, but at heart embrace the truth of the Gospel - in spite of….

Joe

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